19 replies to this topic

[superten]

Been thinking about Englands fixtures this season and beyond.Im looking for to the two games against the Exiles I think both will be great games.But am disapointed with the Autumn fixtures England v France and Wales , England will learn nothing from these two matches neither will Wales or France except how to tackle.Then I thought couldnt we have instead England v the Celtics instead.The celtics like the Exiles but would be made up of the best Wales , Scotland and Ireland players.I dont know if they would be enough depth so let you guys come up with a squad and lets see.Having the Celtics may also help Wales Scotland and Ireland keep there best players instead of losing them to England.Maybe see how it went and have them playing in the next four nations.Also while England play the Exiles couldnt we have France v Celtics ? Have the Celtics playing together all times except for world cup perhaps.Maybe do a similar thing with the pacific island nations who knows.

[Methven Hornet]

Been thinking about Englands fixtures this season and beyond.Im looking for to the two games against the Exiles I think both will be great games.But am disapointed with the Autumn fixtures England v France and Wales , England will learn nothing from these two matches neither will Wales or France except how to tackle.Then I thought couldnt we have instead England v the Celtics instead.The celtics like the Exiles but would be made up of the best Wales , Scotland and Ireland players.I dont know if they would be enough depth so let you guys come up with a squad and lets see.Having the Celtics may also help Wales Scotland and Ireland keep there best players instead of losing them to England.Maybe see how it went and have them playing in the next four nations.Also while England play the Exiles couldnt we have France v Celtics ? Have the Celtics playing together all times except for world cup perhaps.Maybe do a similar thing with the pacific island nations who knows.

I've always wondered, particularly when people talk about a combined Pacific Island side, whether a Celtic Nations side would work (hate the name but what alternative is there?). I seem to remember there being such an initiative with the students, don't know if that still exists.

One positive thing would, of course, be that it would help the three nations to retain, or even attract, their professional 'heritage' players, particularly if they had the propect of getting to face England, Australia, NZ on the international field. It could also provide an attractive game to market in those nations, especially as they would be playing against the best in the world.

Would they be strong enough to provide testing opposition for England, though? Certainly there would be the passion as people in these countries do see England as the team to beat!

The playing shirt would be a challenge; I remember trying once to match up the three colours to design a shirt and it is not the easiest combination to work with...

Perhaps it is an idea that should have been looked at a few years ago. I suspect that the Welsh have the ambition to be able to compete with England in the near future, and wouldn't fancy losing fixtures to a combined side.

[superten]

I've always wondered, particularly when people talk about a combined Pacific Island side, whether a Celtic Nations side would work (hate the name but what alternative is there?). I seem to remember there being such an initiative with the students, don't know if that still exists.

One positive thing would, of course, be that it would help the three nations to retain, or even attract, their professional 'heritage' players, particularly if they had the propect of getting to face England, Australia, NZ on the international field. It could also provide an attractive game to market in those nations, especially as they would be playing against the best in the world.

Would they be strong enough to provide testing opposition for England, though? Certainly there would be the passion as people in these countries do see England as the team to beat!

The playing shirt would be a challenge; I remember trying once to match up the three colours to design a shirt and it is not the easiest combination to work with...

Perhaps it is an idea that should have been looked at a few years ago. I suspect that the Welsh have the ambition to be able to compete with England in the near future, and wouldn't fancy losing fixtures to a combined side.

[Matt J]

Been thinking about Englands fixtures this season and beyond.Im looking for to the two games against the Exiles I think both will be great games.But am disapointed with the Autumn fixtures England v France and Wales , England will learn nothing from these two matches neither will Wales or France except how to tackle.Then I thought couldnt we have instead England v the Celtics instead.The celtics like the Exiles but would be made up of the best Wales , Scotland and Ireland players.I dont know if they would be enough depth so let you guys come up with a squad and lets see.Having the Celtics may also help Wales Scotland and Ireland keep there best players instead of losing them to England.Maybe see how it went and have them playing in the next four nations.Also while England play the Exiles couldnt we have France v Celtics ? Have the Celtics playing together all times except for world cup perhaps.Maybe do a similar thing with the pacific island nations who knows.

England aren't centre of the universe, If England are top quality opposition, then France and Wales have something to take from these games.

Out of interest, this Celtic nations side, although a good idea for another rep side, would it be Celtic born or could it include Pat Richards/Liam Finn et al?

[superten]

Have thought some more on this having read your reply . For the name perhaps we could go with The Tribes ? As for kit and colours maybe blue/green and white hoops . The green and white are in both the flag of Ireland and Wales while the blue and white is in Scotland.Could have the socks of the nation they are from ie green for Ireland , red for Wales and blue of Scotland.The Tribes v England what do you think now lets see what squad you can all come up with id be interested to see .

[Matt J]

no.

[nec]

Sports that succeed don't make up opposition. West indies are a historical anomaly that came about whilst the constituent parts were still colonies, however i can see virtue in allowing the smaller pacific nations to join together. We need nation v nation to be the default though.

[Lobbygobbler]

No problem so long as the England v Wales/France games are AWAY.

This needs to be a challenge for England so pointless playing at home (which it prob will be).

Once these teams can beat us at their home we can play home/away

[Methven Hornet]

Sports that succeed don't make up opposition. West indies are a historical anomaly that came about whilst the constituent parts were still colonies, however i can see virtue in allowing the smaller pacific nations to join together. We need nation v nation to be the default though.

I think the idea is for nation v nation to be the default, but just to have the combined sides for when the opposition requires it. I know Ireland are down to play Australia and England in the world cup - predicated on the likely availability of plenty of Irish-Australians who will make the squad, no doubt - but under normal circumstances you wouldn't the put the Irish or Scots on the same park as England, never mind Australia or NZ.

England definitely need strong northern hemisphere opponents, though, and a combined 'Celtic' Nations could be an option. I think it would probably make more sense than a Pacific Islands combination, which would be a more diverse set of cultures (I'm not sure what cultural connection Samoa has with Fiji, or Fiji with Tonga, for instance; at least Ireland has cultural/historical/linguistic connections to Scotland who, in turn, have cultural/historical/linguistic connections to Wales).

Still, neither combination is likely to be on the cards.

[On the point about successful sports not making up opposition, rugby union have had plenty: Barbarians, British and Irish Lions, Pacific Islands, East Africa, Arabian Gulf

Soccer has had Rest of the World teams

Cricket has had West/East Africa as well as the West Indies; possibly the Gulf states???

Golf, of course, has had the European Ryder Cup team for a number of years, and also has an international team made up from non-Europeans/non-Americans

All successful sports!

Plus, of course, rugby league has had Great Britain and Ireland (when it suited) and the Rest of the World!!

But, yes, where possible it should always be nation v nation]

[Bleep1673]

Soccer has had Rest of the World teams

really? When was that game? Or are you talking theoretical "on paper" teams?

[Jeffles]

England played Rest of the World to mark the Centenery of the FA in the 1960s some time. Australia played Rest of the World in RL in 1988 and the ARL Kangaroos played a (non-Super League aligned) Rest of the World during 1997.

For every extra England fixture you get against a made up opponent, that's one less chance for Wales and France to Test themselves against them. That potentially deprives them of a chance to improve, which would be a shame for those countries. The make up this year is the best of a situation were Aus and NZ don't want to tour. England balances match practice (4-5 fixtures) with generosity to emerging neighbours (Tests v Wales and France) while also testing themselves against a higher quality opponent (the Exiles). Hard to fault the make up there.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

England played Rest of the World to mark the Centenery of the FA in the 1960s some time. Australia played Rest of the World in RL in 1988 and the ARL Kangaroos played a (non-Super League aligned) Rest of the World during 1997.

For every extra England fixture you get against a made up opponent, that's one less chance for Wales and France to Test themselves against them. That potentially deprives them of a chance to improve, which would be a shame for those countries. The make up this year is the best of a situation were Aus and NZ don't want to tour. England balances match practice (4-5 fixtures) with generosity to emerging neighbours (Tests v Wales and France) while also testing themselves against a higher quality opponent (the Exiles). Hard to fault the make up there.

Depending on when the game is, an England vs Wales/France game isn't exactly a "test", and does nothing but demoralise the lesser nation. It's like us playing the Kangaroos mid-season every year. It'd kill off the end-of-season comp if we get mullered.

Wales and France will most likely better improve by playing competition that they have at least a hope of beating, but not someone that will hammer them or they will hammer. Same for England.

[WelshpoolMarauder]

Wales and France will most likely better improve by playing competition that they have at least a hope of beating, but not someone that will hammer them or they will hammer. Same for England.

Respectfully disagree. We'll improve by getting to play against the top sides more regularly, even if there are a few hammerings in the short-term. Look at the Evans lads at Warrington - elected to play for England because they want to play against the best international sides in the world. If they knew they were going to have the chance to play against England, Australia and New Zealand on a regular basis, they'd most likely have stuck with the country they were born in, making our squad stronger and more competitive.

The same goes for Scotland and Ireland too - if their players were getting the opportunity to play against the best sides, then they wouldn't be jumping ship as soon as England come calling.

Edited by WelshpoolMarauder, 13 April 2012 - 07:15 AM.

[deluded pom?]

The same goes for Scotland and Ireland too - if their players were getting the opportunity to play against the best sides, then they wouldn't be jumping ship as soon as England come calling.

Spot on. The lack of opportunity to play the top sides is the biggest drawback to any progression in the international game here in Europe and in the Pacific region.

[nec]

International matches are the priority, whether they are the only representative matches for England players is another matter.

[Methven Hornet]

really? When was that game? Or are you talking theoretical "on paper" teams?

There have been quite a few Rest of the World teams, including the one England played to celebrate the centenary of the FA in 1963. Those officially recognised by FIFA are listed on this webpage, but there have been many other unofficial ones. I must stress that none have been involved in competition, but they have taken the field for anniversaries, special occasions and the farewell's of special players (a bit like the RFL played the ROW a number of years ago - I think it was to mark the opening of the Hall of Fame).

I seem to remember that the Irish FA (Northern Ireland) played a combine team once, which could have been the Rest of the UK - but I can't find any reference to it.

[Methven Hornet]

International matches are the priority, whether they are the only representative matches for England players is another matter.

I quite agree.

[Didgi]

For every extra England fixture you get against a made up opponent, that's one less chance for Wales and France to Test themselves against them. That potentially deprives them of a chance to improve, which would be a shame for those countries. The make up this year is the best of a situation were Aus and NZ don't want to tour. England balances match practice (4-5 fixtures) with generosity to emerging neighbours (Tests v Wales and France) while also testing themselves against a higher quality opponent (the Exiles). Hard to fault the make up there.

Agree with most of this, well put. I'd be hoping for a few other fixtures between Wales, Scotland, Ireland and France (not sure if this is already happening) too, but that's another issue.

Respectfully disagree. We'll improve by getting to play against the top sides more regularly, even if there are a few hammerings in the short-term. Look at the Evans lads at Warrington - elected to play for England because they want to play against the best international sides in the world. If they knew they were going to have the chance to play against England, Australia and New Zealand on a regular basis, they'd most likely have stuck with the country they were born in, making our squad stronger and more competitive.

The same goes for Scotland and Ireland too - if their players were getting the opportunity to play against the best sides, then they wouldn't be jumping ship as soon as England come calling.

Again, agree and well put. There will always be a natural draw towards the limelight and the money and opportunity to win that comes with playing for the big three, but if smaller nations can at least have regular fixtures against them then not only will they begin to improve and hence bring better players, but they will attract more/better players to begin with and therefore improve.

[deluded pom?]

Again, agree and well put. There will always be a natural draw towards the limelight and the money and opportunity to win that comes with playing for the big three, but if smaller nations can at least have regular fixtures against them then not only will they begin to improve and hence bring better players, but they will attract more/better players to begin with and therefore improve.

Just as long as the wider exposure isn't seen as a way of players putting themselves in the "shop window" for England selection further down the track.

[Didgi]

Hopefully updated eligibility laws can drag us out of the farcical situations we see today and that won't happen.