30 replies to this topic

[BatleyFanAndy]

We had automatic promotion/relegation in rugby league?

What are the pros and cons?

What would it mean for teams like Batley/Dewsbury and how different would that be for teams like Featherstone and Leigh?

[ernieone]

We had automatic promotion/relegation in rugby league?

What are the pros and cons?

What would it mean for teams like Batley/Dewsbury and how different would that be for teams like Featherstone and Leigh?

Who would get promoted the winners of the league or the team that wins the play off's?
Watching Widnes against Cas last night both teams would struggle to be in the top six of the championship.

[fredm]

I don't know why people are so infatuated with regard to promotion/relegation. The Championship competition is much more enthralling than most matches in SL, all it needs is for far greater promotion of the product by the RFL and by the clubs themselves.

The vast majority of teams in SL are in debt and living from hand to mouth or on the whim of a benefactor. How many teams were promoted before the franchise system came in and ended up in complete disarray? I think even if Fev or Fax went into SL they would struggle financially and have a weak team, thus the floating spectator would stay away and the finances would drop even more.

[BatleyFanAndy]

Who would get promoted the winners of the league or the team that wins the play off's?
Watching Widnes against Cas last night both teams would struggle to be in the top six of the championship.

I'd say playoffs.

[BatleyFanAndy]

I don't know why people are so infatuated with regard to promotion/relegation. The Championship competition is much more enthralling than most matches in SL, all it needs is for far greater promotion of the product by the RFL and by the clubs themselves.

The vast majority of teams in SL are in debt and living from hand to mouth or on the whim of a benefactor. How many teams were promoted before the franchise system came in and ended up in complete disarray? I think even if Fev or Fax went into SL they would struggle financially and have a weak team, thus the floating spectator would stay away and the finances would drop even more.

Hull KR came through it OK.

[HaroldShand]

In all fairness though, Hull KR were the biggest sleeping giants in the sport, and a club with a huge ready-made fanbase right on their doorstep.
However, while I see what FredM is trying to say, the aim of any professional sporting club is, and always has been, to play at the highest level possible within their field. Currently, due to 'criteria' and the non-likelihood of 'selection', thats an aim that is totally beyond most clubs outside of SL - and always will be if we persist with the status quo. Is there not a possibility that, if say Batley were to win promotion, a benefactor might come on board and help us to become an established top flight outfit? Alternatively, we might be relegated immediately without winning a match. So what? As long as we'd lived within our means (I'm sure KN would), for most fans it'd be absolutely living the dream to welcome Leeds Rhinos, Wigan and Saints to the Mount for a league season.

[BatleyFanAndy]

In all fairness though, Hull KR were the biggest sleeping giants in the sport, and a club with a huge ready-made fanbase right on their doorstep.
However, while I see what FredM is trying to say, the aim of any professional sporting club is, and always has been, to play at the highest level possible within their field. Currently, due to 'criteria' and the non-likelihood of 'selection', thats an aim that is totally beyond most clubs outside of SL - and always will be if we persist with the status quo. Is there not a possibility that, if say Batley were to win promotion, a benefactor might come on board and help us to become an established top flight outfit? Alternatively, we might be relegated immediately without winning a match. So what? As long as we'd lived within our means (I'm sure KN would), for most fans it'd be absolutely living the dream to welcome Leeds Rhinos, Wigan and Saints to the Mount for a league season.

Wholly agree

[vitocorleone]

In all fairness though, Hull KR were the biggest sleeping giants in the sport, and a club with a huge ready-made fanbase right on their doorstep.
However, while I see what FredM is trying to say, the aim of any professional sporting club is, and always has been, to play at the highest level possible within their field. Currently, due to 'criteria' and the non-likelihood of 'selection', thats an aim that is totally beyond most clubs outside of SL - and always will be if we persist with the status quo. Is there not a possibility that, if say Batley were to win promotion, a benefactor might come on board and help us to become an established top flight outfit? Alternatively, we might be relegated immediately without winning a match. So what? As long as we'd lived within our means (I'm sure KN would), for most fans it'd be absolutely living the dream to welcome Leeds Rhinos, Wigan and Saints to the Mount for a league season.

Correct again Mr. Shand.

[greavesy]

I don't know why people are so infatuated with regard to promotion/relegation. The Championship competition is much more enthralling than most matches in SL, all it needs is for far greater promotion of the product by the RFL and by the clubs themselves.

The vast majority of teams in SL are in debt and living from hand to mouth or on the whim of a benefactor. How many teams were promoted before the franchise system came in and ended up in complete disarray? I think even if Fev or Fax went into SL they would struggle financially and have a weak team, thus the floating spectator would stay away and the finances would drop even more.

Agreed Fred absolutely spot on. Who wants to get thrashed every week in super duper league. on our turnover thats what would happen

Edited by greavesy, 04 July 2012 - 03:32 PM.

[Pride & Heritage]

Agreed Fred absolutely spot on. Who wants to get threshed every week in super duper league. on our turnover thats what would happen

I agree nobody wants to get thrashed every week, but remember the RFL/Sky pay the teams in the top flight £1million a season, instead of the £100k we get now. The salary cap is still £1.8million in SL. Sponsorship in the top flight would increase due to greater TV exposure; gates would dramatically increase from what we have now, simply based on away support, if nothing else. Even a very conservative estimate would see our gates triple from where they are now, as we are not far (travel wise) from many of the big clubs, so I do not think we would have the same problem as London in attracting away support. We would also have more home games in the top flight than we have had this season too.

Fag packet maths:

3000 avg. home gate
x £12 entrance fee (avg. of full price and OAP/Juniors) = £36,000 in gate money for each home game
x 13 home games a season =£468,000
+ the magic weekend shared gate say another £10,000
+ Challenge Cup games, say another £20,000

Admittedly there would be extra costs on policing and stewarding etc. in the top flight; and we would need a 2nd team too. Using the very conservative figures above, we are only just over £200k away from the ceiling of the salary cap, maybe requiring another £50k running costs on top, for the 2nd team.

I haven't taken into account the extra takings at the bar, food, replica shirts etc. or sponsorship and Bissa membership into the equation though, so I do not think we are as far away from being competitive as some would have you believe. The other thing to take into account is, if Bradford are shown the door to Championship 1 there will be a lot of floating supporters locally looking for a new team to support.

Edited by Pride & Heritage, 04 July 2012 - 06:03 PM.

[grumpyoldram]

I agree nobody wants to get thrashed every week, but remember the RFL/Sky pay the teams in the top flight £1million a season, instead of the £100k we get now. The salary cap is still £1.8million in SL. Sponsorship in the top flight would increase due to greater TV exposure; gates would dramatically increase from what we have now, simply based on away support, if nothing else. Even a very conservative estimate would see our gates triple from where they are now, as we are not far (travel wise) from many of the big clubs, so I do not think we would have the same problem as London in attracting away support. We would also have more home games in the top flight than we have had this season too.

Fag packet maths:

3000 avg. home gate
x £12 entrance fee (avg. of full price and OAP/Juniors) = £36,000 in gate money for each home game
x 13 home games a season =£468,000
+ the magic weekend shared gate say another £10,000
+ Challenge Cup games, say another £20,000

Admittedly there would be extra costs on policing and stewarding etc. in the top flight; and we would need a 2nd team too. Using the very conservative figures above, we are only just over £200k away from the ceiling of the salary cap, maybe requiring another £50k running costs on top, for the 2nd team.

I haven't taken into account the extra takings at the bar, food, replica shirts etc. or sponsorship and Bissa membership into the equation though, so I do not think we are as far away from being competitive as some would have you believe. The other thing to take into account is, if Bradford are shown the door to Championship 1 there will be a lot of floating supporters locally looking for a new team to support.

I assume that Bradford also did the maths - they average somewhere around 12,000 gates, sold their lease, had a whip round and still couldn't make ends meet. The giants have a huge potential support, but against poorly supported clubs struggle to make 3000 - even when they are winning - I gather that the generosity of mr Davy is all that keeps them afloat. I think better supported and financed championship clubs than Batley would struggle in SL.

[fredm]

Also add in the costs of full time coaching staff; extra facilities needed for full time training of a greater number of persons - either to be rented or maintained; extra St John ambulance; extra turnstile operators etc.

Also the extra income from sales of beer and refreshments would not increase by a great deal. There is physically only so much beer you can sell in the 1 hour before kick off, which is when the vast majority is sold, by virtue of the number of pumps, size of bars etc. Similarly with refreshments. If you open extra outlets they have to be manned and therefore additional costs are incurred.

[Blind side johnny]

For what it's worth this has been extensively discussed many many times on the main forum as a number of posters on here will be aware.

The fag-packet calculations that have been made there conclude that a club needs a £4M turnover, however that is derived, to break-even in SL. Without that, and however you try to cut your cloth, the club will lose money, and probably a significant amount.

Whether this is a risk that fans would be prepared to take for the sake of a season in the sun is moot.

[Pride & Heritage]

I assume that Bradford also did the maths - they average somewhere around 12,000 gates, sold their lease, had a whip round and still couldn't make ends meet. The giants have a huge potential support, but against poorly supported clubs struggle to make 3000 - even when they are winning - I gather that the generosity of mr Davy is all that keeps them afloat. I think better supported and financed championship clubs than Batley would struggle in SL.

The 12000 gates at Bradford and small amounts of revenue was down to the insane season ticket offer they tried. The same cheap season ticket offer that had previously proven to be unsuccessful at Bradford City, Huddersfield Town and the Rams, so I do not know how the Bulls thought that they would have any greater success than the those clubs previously mentioned is beyond me. I'm not sure where you get your figures from re. the Giants either, there lowest gate in the league this season was against London and they still got over 6000 and they are averaging significantly more than that.

Also add in the costs of full time coaching staff; extra facilities needed for full time training of a greater number of persons - either to be rented or maintained; extra St John ambulance; extra turnstile operators etc.

Also the extra income from sales of beer and refreshments would not increase by a great deal. There is physically only so much beer you can sell in the 1 hour before kick off, which is when the vast majority is sold, by virtue of the number of pumps, size of bars etc. Similarly with refreshments. If you open extra outlets they have to be manned and therefore additional costs are incurred.

For what it's worth this has been extensively discussed many many times on the main forum as a number of posters on here will be aware.

The fag-packet calculations that have been made there conclude that a club needs a £4M turnover, however that is derived, to break-even in SL. Without that, and however you try to cut your cloth, the club will lose money, and probably a significant amount.

Whether this is a risk that fans would be prepared to take for the sake of a season in the sun is moot.

I fully agree that there must be more costs involved in running a club, I really do not understand how the costs would need to be £4million a season. Maybe though it highlights where the RFL are going wrong in setting the salary cap at £1.8million and only including player wages in it. Maybe the cap should should be increased and include the whole or certainly most of the costs involved in running a club. That way it might clamp down on players or coaches wives getting highly paid jobs in the club shop for instance,

In terms of refreshments surely a bottle only bar could be opened, so no need for extra pumps, simply pour the beer in to a plastic cup which would help selling extra, that would not require much in terms of manpower or space or equipment, just a large fridge.

I'm also unsure of how much greater the costs would be for the extra training facilities needed. Surely all of the players have gym membership anyway so that would not cost any more, whether you are in SL or the Championship, squad sizes in sl are not significantly bigger than those in the Championship either (roughly 25-30 players) as we had at the start of the season. For the extra outdoor training during the week, surely a park or school field could be hired for very little money too if you couldn't/didn't want to use the pitch.

[fredm]

I'm also unsure of how much greater the costs would be for the extra training facilities needed. Surely all of the players have gym membership anyway so that would not cost any more, whether you are in SL or the Championship, squad sizes in sl are not significantly bigger than those in the Championship either (roughly 25-30 players) as we had at the start of the season. For the extra outdoor training during the week, surely a park or school field could be hired for very little money too if you couldn't/didn't want to use the pitch.

You must remember that when you employ these full time players you are moving into the realms of the prima donnas. They will require top class facilities, with steam baths; ice baths, massage rooms, etc. Not for them changing facilities then a 10 minute walk to a grass field where they can run up and down.

[grumpyoldram]

Pride and heritage quoted The 12000 gates at Bradford and small amounts of revenue was down to the insane season ticket offer they tried. The same cheap season ticket offer that had previously proven to be unsuccessful at Bradford City, Huddersfield Town and the Rams, so I do not know how the Bulls thought that they would have any greater success than the those clubs previously mentioned is beyond me. I'm not sure where you get your figures from re. the Giants either, there lowest gate in the league this season was against London and they still got over 6000 and they are averaging significantly more than that

I don't want to argue about stats, but sky sports stats stated the lowest giants attendance was 2570 against Broncos, but maybe it was in the cup, or even another year. I am not sure about the Bulls ticket offers, I didn't think they were cheap this year, but they are still apparently getting crowds of 13000, despite their problems. One thing is for sure, if they can't make ends meet in SL, it is unlikely Batley would, even with treble crowds and extreme prudence.

[Pride & Heritage]

I don't want to argue about stats, but sky sports stats stated the lowest giants attendance was 2570 against Broncos, but maybe it was in the cup, or even another year. I am not sure about the Bulls ticket offers, I didn't think they were cheap this year, but they are still apparently getting crowds of 13000, despite their problems. One thing is for sure, if they can't make ends meet in SL, it is unlikely Batley would, even with treble crowds and extreme prudence.

Sorry GOR if I came across as argumentative, it wasn't my intention, I'm just trying to piece together how teams funded to the tune of £1million a year with a salary cap of £1.8million can be in trouble if they are:
a). sticking to the rules of the cap and not paying wives and GF's as back office/admin staff as part of the player's deal,
b ). own there own ground with no rent to pay and get the takings from the bars and food outlets.
c) enjoying increased sponsorship from there extra tv coverage.

The low crowd you mentioned for the Giants was in the cup. The cup was dreadfully under supported again this year, particularly in the early rounds . The league game according to the RLfans stats site stated it was a smudge over 6000 (although admittedly it is not gospel by any means).

Bradford definitely have the cut priced £60 season ticket offer this season, I remember them bragging about how they had sold over 10,000 pre-season in the T&A. So it always seemed like trouble was on the horizon as soon as it was announced. I'm sure quite a few fans from other clubs bought them to go to the odd game when there team was away, playing on a different day, and to go to the away fixture at Bradford in SL's case.

At £60 you'd only need to go 3 times a season to make it worthwhile, so for instance a Wakefield or Huddersfield fan might think. I won't be going to London or Catalans away, so I'll go to the Bulls on those weekend to at least see a live game, of course there is the league game against Wakefield or Huddersfield too, which they would go to anyway and pay £20 in. So it would pay for itself on that alone.

You must remember that when you employ these full time players you are moving into the realms of the prima donnas. They will require top class facilities, with steam baths; ice baths, massage rooms, etc. Not for them changing facilities then a 10 minute walk to a grass field where they can run up and down.

Fair point Fred, but another £2million a season on top of wages seems very excessive, even for the most pampered of prima donnas,

Edited by Pride & Heritage, 09 July 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[bazbulldog]

I'm not sure that Bradford City would agree that their £100 season ticket offer of a few years ago was unsuccessfull, at the time they claimed that their gates
had increased to over 10,000 and on average those attending spent around £4.50 inside the ground and also since then their average crowds have remained
above 10,000 despite playing in the 2nd (really the 4th) division,the fact is that every club whether Soccer or RL or any other sport has to try different things
to increase support and some things that work for one club won't necessarily work for another but until you try you wont know,also Huddersfield Town sold
their £100 season tickets for one season only in 2008 and only to celebrate the club's 100 year anniversary.

[BatleyFanAndy]

Sorry GOR if I came across as argumentative, it wasn't my intention, I'm just trying to piece together how teams funded to the tune of £1million a year with a salary cap of £1.8million can be in trouble if they are:
a). sticking to the rules of the cap and not paying wives and GF's as back office/admin staff as part of the player's deal,
b ). own there own ground with no rent to pay and get the takings from the bars and food outlets.
c) enjoying increased sponsorship from there extra tv coverage.

The low crowd you mentioned for the Giants was in the cup. The cup was dreadfully under supported again this year, particularly in the early rounds . The league game according to the RLfans stats site stated it was a smudge over 6000 (although admittedly it is not gospel by any means).

Bradford definitely have the cut priced £60 season ticket offer this season, I remember them bragging about how they had sold over 10,000 pre-season in the T&A. So it always seemed like trouble was on the horizon as soon as it was announced. I'm sure quite a few fans from other clubs bought them to go to the odd game when there team was away, playing on a different day, and to go to the away fixture at Bradford in SL's case.

At £60 you'd only need to go 3 times a season to make it worthwhile, so for instance a Wakefield or Huddersfield fan might think. I won't be going to London or Catalans away, so I'll go to the Bulls on those weekend to at least see a live game, of course there is the league game against Wakefield or Huddersfield too, which they would go to anyway and pay £20 in. So it would pay for itself on that alone.



Fair point Fred, but another £2million a season on top of wages seems very excessive, even for the most pampered of prima donnas,

Are you sure Bradford Bulls owned Odsal? I have a feeling there is a third party owner and the RFL only bought the remainder of the lease.

[grumpyoldram]

Sorry GOR if I came across as argumentative, it wasn't my intention, I'm just trying to piece together how teams funded to the tune of £1million a year with a salary cap of £1.8million can be in trouble if they are:
a). sticking to the rules of the cap and not paying wives and GF's as back office/admin staff as part of the player's deal,
b ). own there own ground with no rent to pay and get the takings from the bars and food outlets.
c) enjoying increased sponsorship from there extra tv coverage.

The low crowd you mentioned for the Giants was in the cup. The cup was dreadfully under supported again this year, particularly in the early rounds . The league game according to the RLfans stats site stated it was a smudge over 6000 (although admittedly it is not gospel by any means).

Bradford definitely have the cut priced £60 season ticket offer this season, I remember them bragging about how they had sold over 10,000 pre-season in the T&A. So it always seemed like trouble was on the horizon as soon as it was announced. I'm sure quite a few fans from other clubs bought them to go to the odd game when there team was away, playing on a different day, and to go to the away fixture at Bradford in SL's case.

At £60 you'd only need to go 3 times a season to make it worthwhile, so for instance a Wakefield or Huddersfield fan might think. I won't be going to London or Catalans away, so I'll go to the Bulls on those weekend to at least see a live game, of course there is the league game against Wakefield or Huddersfield too, which they would go to anyway and pay £20 in. So it would pay for itself on that alone.



Fair point Fred, but another £2million a season on top of wages seems very excessive, even for the most pampered of prima donnas,

Fair do's.