26 replies to this topic

[THE RED ROOSTER]

No doubt about it, yesterday's attendance was truly dire considering there was no non-Olympic related sport on in the capital. I was shocked at the crowd which was less than I thought but it's not just the club's locust years on the field that have contributed to the dwindling audfience

A crusade or nothing
I am not aware who exactly came out with the quote that London is a crusade or nothing, it might have been Al Ferrer, but it's certainly true that in an expansion area you need to be very evangelical in energising your fan base. Going back to 1996/1997 there was a very active fanbase not only producing London Calling the fanzine in those pre-internet days but the supporters club actually had a table you could buy away match programmes.

A supporters club, that's a thing of the past the Broncos are:

A club without a Supporters Club
A club that runs no organised away travel

The sad saga of the volunteers who formed to help the club a few years ago, then ceased then re-formed and finally ceased after the Catalan trip fiasco where according to Barney of the double-barrelled surname. It was alleged that the club told SKY "Don't worry about changing the kickoff time. No one goes anyway". Which was bad news for those who had already booked travel and a disgraceful way to treat your fans.

The disconnect from the support started in the Branson ownership era and remained so until Ian Lenagan came on board.
Under the Lenagan / Hogg era there were regular fan forums - a chance for the club to explain itself and for the fans to feel connected with what was going on at the club. There even was an opportunity for fans to pop in on a sunday morning and choose their season ticket seat for next season.

All this changed when Ian left for Wigan. When the history of the club gets written this will be seen as perhaps the pivotal moment. I have have never resented Ian going in the sense that you get one go on the planet and if the opportunity comes to own the club you supported as a child you take it. But in the wake of his departure fan forums, and indeed any communication from the club have become practically non existant partly due to having head coaches who it is alleged did not appreciate questioning of their achievements (or lack of) with the side.

Granted we do have facebook now subject to Pravda style censorship of critical comment but at the end of the day

People don't feel involved with the club
People don't feel the club listens to them

For sure it's said that sports fans have greater brand loyalty than shoppers who would switch from Tesco to Morrisons but then in the 21st century, even Catholic marrages end due to irreconcilable differences. What is not realised is that in an expansion area your supporters have and retain interests in other sports, the ones they grew up with and when their interest in League wanes for whatever reason then people go back to their original sports.

In my case if anyone asks me my favourite sport I would say Cricket and Rugby League on a par for top spot. One sport has its problems but is doing ok and the other fast going down the gurgler in the northern hemisphere. Now when I buy a Broncos Season ticket I do so in the knowledge that I will miss a couple of games when I spend a month back in Australia / New Zealand as I will do in 2013. I have a heavy Cricket schedule next summer so why should I renew a Bronco season ticket. More the question why did I do so this year and I suppose it's because I like Rugby League and it's a bit like putting £100 in a bucket collection for the game. It does however commit me to going even though with seasons like we have had recently there is no other reason for going.

That's my story but how many others who watch Soccer or Union think in the same way?

Marketing Muddle
Just what is London's target audience?, If we look at the advertising for the Wigan Family Fun Day on July 21st you get:

A banner appearing on Crickinfo
A discounted ticket offer for Charlton Athletic fans
Discounted tickets promoited in TNT the free weekly for Australiasians in London
An advert in the entertainment section of the free sheet Metro

Seems a scattergun approach to me. Now I am not for spending money the club does not have on mass marketing.
but it would help if the marketing budget you have is targeted at a specific group and in that sense why has the club not profiled it's existing season ticket base to find out:

Who we are
Where we come from
What sports we watch other than Rugby League

This makes more sense that the free ticket fiasco which I as a paying fan still resent. Obviously no-one at the club realised that internet calls for freebies to be handed out had more than just a smidgen of self-interest. I am not good at names but remember faces and none of the freebie fans are with us now.

The Club would also avoid the calamity of Friday Night fixtures which not only disadvantage the away sides travelling support , and I estimate Warrington will be 50% down on what they would have brought for a saturday, but this is a non-sense for a club that draws its support from a region.not within a 10 miles radius of the Stoop. London is not Leigh.

The London Nomads
It's been done to death on the boards but frankly the questrion of where we play next year is still in question. If you read the programme the number of development officers and the office in East London indicates where the club wants to go but this forgets two things.

Firstly, Why we went back to West London in 1997 when we were told that since the days of Fulham, London was a West London club why it any different now.

Secondly, for all that you gain in new support you lose in old support that will not cross to the other side of London. And of course if things don't work out in thev East are you going back to West London again ?

The On the Road game at Gillingham was a success working with the Local Amateur Club. i stand to be corrected but I think with the game being sponsored this might have been the one game the club came close to break-even this year.though the opportunity to sell merchandise, even if it was from the back of the club van was lost.

I would play again at Gillingham next season and with RLWC coming up be looking at staging a match in Bristol if the local club wants to get involved. "Rugby League Live" could if the logistics are worked out be a money-spinner.

But this will not be to everyone;s taste so I would suggest two types opf season ticket - The London Bronco with both on the road games and The Stooper season ticket for the 10 games in Twickenham. The key point here is that people do not feel they have to go or are forced to pay for matches they will not attend which vexed many this year.

The uncertainty has to be resolved with many waiting on a club announcement before renewal.

So there you have it, Internet Opinion is the opinion of the author alone. it does not represent anyone elses views. My own posts fall into this category. For sure the club's on field decline is a main reason for the attendance drop off but its not the only reason and I hope I have identfied some other contrbutory factors.

Discuss.

[TwoBlues]

Why do Broncos play on a Saturday afternoon,the same day as a number of amateur sides also play in the south east ?
I would not have thought it was conducive to attracting corporate sponsorship when a number of other sports are also played that day.

[GeordieSaint]

It is pretty obvious to an outsider to see the club has a lot of internal problems that have affected crowds. To what extent would a successful side on the field turn that around?

[THE RED ROOSTER]

Why do Broncos play on a Saturday afternoon,the same day as a number of amateur sides also play in the south east ?
I would not have thought it was conducive to attracting corporate sponsorship when a number of other sports are also played that day.

The club plays a mixture of Saturdays and Sundays. The main reason foir adopting Saturday's was when the club rebranded as Harlequins RL it fitted in with the Union Clubs traditional matchday and kick off time. That's not to say that Saturdays are unpopular with the fanbase during the era of Glasnost at the club under Ian Lenagan there was an internet poll that revealed an overwhelming majority in favourt of Saturday's as public transport is better for those of us living far away, - In my case a 2 hour journey or 4 hour round trip -. There is also no evidence that amateurs turn up anyway regardless of when the club plays despite internet protestations. The clearest evidence being the 1,000 FREE season tickets given away in the 2006 season to amateur clubs of which former Club CEO Paul Brown said publicly only had a 1 in 10 attendance rate.

As regards corporate sponsorship, Soccer, Union and Cricket all play on any day with a "y" in it so changing the day would not make any difference. A sponsor is either a northern exile with a love of league or someone who feels they can get media exposure relatively cheaply through association with a sporting club and despite the internet threads about London's alleged value to SKY our unsuccessful club hardly appears on the satellite channel wheras the likes of St Helens, warrington, Wigan and Leeds would all represent a better bet for a corporate sponsor to get live TV exposure.

It is pretty obvious to an outsider to see the club has a lot of internal problems that have affected crowds. To what extent would a successful side on the field turn that around?

Prior to this season, the lowest average attendance for the London Broncos was the same season in which the club made its one and only Challenge Cup Final appearance in 1999. I would agree with Rob Purdham our former cumbrian stalwart whoi is of the view that the club would need a sustained period of relative success before you could see any upward trend. Take Huddersfield as an example, Huddersfield have enjoyed relative success from 2006 to 2011 and in this time their average attendance has risen from 5,857 to 7,147 * any increase would be gradual and incremental and not fast enough to stop threads about London's attenances on internet messageboards

In this respect, London is very similar to Salford who despite the clubs formation date and heartland status are another unsuccessful club on the fringe of a major conurbation competing against other established sports.

But the whole point of my posting is that it is not all down to on-field performance, Its the amount of messianic zeal a club can impart to its fanbase by making them feel part of the club. I make no apologies for using a religious analogy as any time I discuss League down here it really is like flogging The Watchtower on the dooprstep.

* Source LPL

[The Future is League]

In my opinion the Olympics would have affected the crowd at the stoop yesterday. They have had a poor season on the field. There may or may not be trouble off the field as well at the club, which despite what people say it does affect some players. I'm sure next season with a decent coach and off the field problems sorted they will have a better season which will = bigger crowds.

[tw15]

In the "glory days" of the Broncos, did we have a youth team or a reserve team? Today we have a lot of raw local talent plus a few Aussies.

Being on Sky is a double edged sword. Like boxing, RL has dropped out of the mainstream media.

I don't know the answer, but I do know marketing has changed a lot since 10 years ago. Fewer people read papers, we have multi-channel tv and of course today we have the Internet.

A lot of the basics are there with the Broncos - a good ground, a youth development programme. We just need the missing pieces in the jigsaw.

[Ackydave]

Until you have a place you can call home, you're on a loser. I know it's obvious but this has to be paramount. When the club is in a settled situation then the marketing can / will start to bite. I also believe that when / if this happens, SL should help more and put some money and other resources into a good marketing strategy.

I'm normally regarded as a "flat capper" and I'm firmly in favour of promotion and relegation. Having said that though, I do want the game to expand. I applaud the efforts being made by the scholars and I can only wonder how you guys put up with the ###### heaped upon you on a regular basis - although from what you say, it's as much from your own management as anything else.

[cardifcrusaderrob]

Same as Wales mun.

[westlondonfan]

In my opinion the Olympics would have affected the crowd at the stoop yesterday. They have had a poor season on the field. There may or may not be trouble off the field as well at the club, which despite what people say it does affect some players. I'm sure next season with a decent coach and off the field problems sorted they will have a better season which will = bigger crowds.

I have to confess I was at the Olympics on Saturday.

[dhw]

Until you have a place you can call home, you're on a loser. I know it's obvious but this has to be paramount.

If you look at the stats the longer the Broncos/Quins are at a given location the more likely it is their attendences will fall. So attracting people they can manage it is keeping them and building on that which seems to be the problem.

When the club is in a settled situation then the marketing can / will start to bite. I also believe that when / if this happens, SL should help more and put some money and other resources into a good marketing strategy.

No amount of marketing will create and maintain interest and that is the real problem; no amount of marketing will change that. If you cannot get active RL players and their parents to watch the Quins/Broncos it is going to be difficult to attract those neutral to the sport.

[sheddings69]

Is this really a surprise to anybody?

Season average crowds for London Since SL started are as follows; 5699, 4941, 3805, 2805, 3354, 3002, 3763. 3383, 3346, 4003, 4642, 3411, 5657, 3566, 3369, 3312.

[JohnM]

Sales people push at the door unlocked by marketing. Marketing pull, sales push. Demand creation, demand fulfilment, that sort of stuff. No club can do it on its own. Its up to the RFL/SLE to condition the market for all clubs and then up to the clubs to fulfil the demand so created. Low crowds at London over the years could mean there is no market. Could also mean that the RFL/SLE/Broncos have just not got their act together.

[CANETMAN]

No doubt about it, yesterday's attendance was truly dire considering there was no non-Olympic related sport on in the capital. I was shocked at the crowd which was less than I thought but it's not just the club's locust years on the field that have contributed to the dwindling audfience

A crusade or nothing
I am not aware who exactly came out with the quote that London is a crusade or nothing, it might have been Al Ferrer, but it's certainly true that in an expansion area you need to be very evangelical in energising your fan base. Going back to 1996/1997 there was a very active fanbase not only producing London Calling the fanzine in those pre-internet days but the supporters club actually had a table you could buy away match programmes.

A supporters club, that's a thing of the past the Broncos are:
Its been going downhill since Barry Marranta was forced to sell his shares to Richard Branson,since then the only time the club has lifted itself was when Ian Lenegan was in charge.As for the crowds they are at least 30% lower than the figures quoted one must also remember that the double header quins RU v Plymouth Albion and Quins RL v Giants quotes a 12000 crowd when in fact 9000 left after the first match this alone adds around 70/800 to the overall seasons figures.Also the 2005 figure would include the on the road match in Perpignan pushing up the average by around 400 a match.CM
A club without a Supporters Club
A club that runs no organised away travel

The sad saga of the volunteers who formed to help the club a few years ago, then ceased then re-formed and finally ceased after the Catalan trip fiasco where according to Barney of the double-barrelled surname. It was alleged that the club told SKY "Don't worry about changing the kickoff time. No one goes anyway". Which was bad news for those who had already booked travel and a disgraceful way to treat your fans.

The disconnect from the support started in the Branson ownership era and remained so until Ian Lenagan came on board.
Under the Lenagan / Hogg era there were regular fan forums - a chance for the club to explain itself and for the fans to feel connected with what was going on at the club. There even was an opportunity for fans to pop in on a sunday morning and choose their season ticket seat for next season.

All this changed when Ian left for Wigan. When the history of the club gets written this will be seen as perhaps the pivotal moment. I have have never resented Ian going in the sense that you get one go on the planet and if the opportunity comes to own the club you supported as a child you take it. But in the wake of his departure fan forums, and indeed any communication from the club have become practically non existant partly due to having head coaches who it is alleged did not appreciate questioning of their achievements (or lack of) with the side.

Granted we do have facebook now subject to Pravda style censorship of critical comment but at the end of the day

People don't feel involved with the club
People don't feel the club listens to them

For sure it's said that sports fans have greater brand loyalty than shoppers who would switch from Tesco to Morrisons but then in the 21st century, even Catholic marrages end due to irreconcilable differences. What is not realised is that in an expansion area your supporters have and retain interests in other sports, the ones they grew up with and when their interest in League wanes for whatever reason then people go back to their original sports.

In my case if anyone asks me my favourite sport I would say Cricket and Rugby League on a par for top spot. One sport has its problems but is doing ok and the other fast going down the gurgler in the northern hemisphere. Now when I buy a Broncos Season ticket I do so in the knowledge that I will miss a couple of games when I spend a month back in Australia / New Zealand as I will do in 2013. I have a heavy Cricket schedule next summer so why should I renew a Bronco season ticket. More the question why did I do so this year and I suppose it's because I like Rugby League and it's a bit like putting £100 in a bucket collection for the game. It does however commit me to going even though with seasons like we have had recently there is no other reason for going.

That's my story but how many others who watch Soccer or Union think in the same way?

Marketing Muddle
Just what is London's target audience?, If we look at the advertising for the Wigan Family Fun Day on July 21st you get:

A banner appearing on Crickinfo
A discounted ticket offer for Charlton Athletic fans
Discounted tickets promoited in TNT the free weekly for Australiasians in London
An advert in the entertainment section of the free sheet Metro

Seems a scattergun approach to me. Now I am not for spending money the club does not have on mass marketing.
but it would help if the marketing budget you have is targeted at a specific group and in that sense why has the club not profiled it's existing season ticket base to find out:

Who we are
Where we come from
What sports we watch other than Rugby League

This makes more sense that the free ticket fiasco which I as a paying fan still resent. Obviously no-one at the club realised that internet calls for freebies to be handed out had more than just a smidgen of self-interest. I am not good at names but remember faces and none of the freebie fans are with us now.

The Club would also avoid the calamity of Friday Night fixtures which not only disadvantage the away sides travelling support , and I estimate Warrington will be 50% down on what they would have brought for a saturday, but this is a non-sense for a club that draws its support from a region.not within a 10 miles radius of the Stoop. London is not Leigh.

The London Nomads
It's been done to death on the boards but frankly the questrion of where we play next year is still in question. If you read the programme the number of development officers and the office in East London indicates where the club wants to go but this forgets two things.

Firstly, Why we went back to West London in 1997 when we were told that since the days of Fulham, London was a West London club why it any different now.

Secondly, for all that you gain in new support you lose in old support that will not cross to the other side of London. And of course if things don't work out in thev East are you going back to West London again ?

The On the Road game at Gillingham was a success working with the Local Amateur Club. i stand to be corrected but I think with the game being sponsored this might have been the one game the club came close to break-even this year.though the opportunity to sell merchandise, even if it was from the back of the club van was lost.

I would play again at Gillingham next season and with RLWC coming up be looking at staging a match in Bristol if the local club wants to get involved. "Rugby League Live" could if the logistics are worked out be a money-spinner.

But this will not be to everyone;s taste so I would suggest two types opf season ticket - The London Bronco with both on the road games and The Stooper season ticket for the 10 games in Twickenham. The key point here is that people do not feel they have to go or are forced to pay for matches they will not attend which vexed many this year.

The uncertainty has to be resolved with many waiting on a club announcement before renewal.

So there you have it, Internet Opinion is the opinion of the author alone. it does not represent anyone elses views. My own posts fall into this category. For sure the club's on field decline is a main reason for the attendance drop off but its not the only reason and I hope I have identfied some other contrbutory factors.

Discuss.

[THE RED ROOSTER]

Is this really a surprise to anybody?

Season average crowds for London Since SL started are as follows; 5699, 4941, 3805, 2805, 3354, 3002, 3763. 3383, 3346, 4003, 4642, 3411, 5657, 3566, 3369, 3312.

The point that is never made about attendances is this . If you were to take the average attendance figures of clubs in the unsuccessful half of Super League and some super sleuth on here was to deduct the number of away fans coming from Wigan, Leeds, Warrington, St Helens, Bradford and the Hull clubs that tops up those averages you would have average attendances not that much greater than London's.

Indeed those in the Championship who come on the internet and state if theior town club was in Super League their crowds would justify their place it is on the basis of the increase largely generated by the travelling support of the clubs named above. It's the argument for a "local game for local people". Now there is a valid case that can be made for championship clubs and their right to aspire to Super League but comparing projected average attendances based on someone elses travelling support in comparison to the average attendances of an unsuccessful and geographically isolated outpost Club is not one of them.

It a microcosm of the problem in Rugby League as a whole, about six or so clubs are doing well and the other clubs are in various stages of disrepair.

However this thread has drifted and the majority of responses have avoided my central point which is the growing disconnection between the club and it's fanbase which is a lot to do with the way the Club's management treats it's fans. If London Rugby League is a crusade or nothing at the moment it's nothing as the club does little to generate missionary zeal amongst it's fanbase and ultimately that's damaging for the expansion of the game..

[THE RED ROOSTER]

In the "glory days" of the Broncos, did we have a youth team or a reserve team? Today we have a lot of raw local talent plus a few Aussies.

To answer your question the club ran an "Alliance" (reserve) team. The Alliance side did produce Dominic Peters who went on to represent Lancashire (London being counted as part of Lancashire for RL purposes !) in the ill fated Origin Series in the early 2000's before his career was prematurely terminated.

In those days though players were basically ex- Rugby Union players giving League a crack and as such lacked the pre-requisite number of games played at junior level which was considered by Brian McDermott as vital in developing an RL skills base. This is not the case now with players progressing from the amateur clubs to the Broncos development scheme.

To give you a bit of a flavour of those times, on 1st June 1996 the alliance side actually produced a programme for our game against Wakefield Trinity which took place at Oxford Rugby Club. In it was the following paragraph

Broncos Alliance Giant prop forward Roger Akkena has returned to his native Nigeria. He failed toi impress the immigration authorities with his credentials for staying. We wish him well in the future

[nadera78]

However this thread has drifted and the majority of responses have avoided my central point which is the growing disconnection between the club and it's fanbase which is a lot to do with the way the Club's management treats it's fans. If London Rugby League is a crusade or nothing at the moment it's nothing as the club does little to generate missionary zeal amongst it's fanbase and ultimately that's damaging for the expansion of the game..

The club currently has the same stench to it that was evident in the dying days at Griffin Park. It seemed only a matter of time then and it does so again now. From top to bottom the club seems to have given up.

[CANETMAN]

Is this really a surprise to anybody?

Season average crowds for London Since SL started are as follows; 5699, 4941, 3805, 2805, 3354, 3002, 3763. 3383, 3346, 4003, 4642, 3411, 5657, 3566, 3369, 3312.

They are actually at least -800 for 2006 as it was the double header Quins RU v Plymouth Albion and Quins RL v Giants 9000 left after the first match.Also the 2005 figure would have been inflated by around 400 a match down to the on the road game in Perpignan v Leeds Rhinos.In addition Petra in marketing admitted once to me that they were bumped up by at least 500/800 per game whilst she was there.CM

[audois]

If you look at Skolars they've been round for ten years now and seem to be building strong roots in Haringey. Now more than ever depending on local lads with a coach from the area in Joe Mbu. They have a link too a with local College. They presently have five teams I think. There base is central and about 15 mins from Kings Cross station on the Underground.

Some one once said a while back that the Broncos have posssibly 10,000 fans out there. People who have shown some interest over the years. The club seem to have a resilient core of fans prepared to travel within reason. With Skolars they seem to be part of where they play. Their youth set up got an award from the Local Council. Isn't part of Broncos answer somewhere around a locality which they can really connect with.

Edited by audois, 07 August 2012 - 10:47 AM.

[Lobbygobbler]

They are actually at least -800 for 2006 as it was the double header Quins RU v Plymouth Albion and Quins RL v Giants 9000 left after the first match.Also the 2005 figure would have been inflated by around 400 a match down to the on the road game in Perpignan v Leeds Rhinos.In addition Petra in marketing admitted once to me that they were bumped up by at least 500/800 per game whilst she was there.CM

Spot in there Canetman. The crowds this year have been no worse than a couple of years ago. I recall a night game against Huddersfield about 3 seasons ago and 2700 was stated despite only the Etihad and behind the sticks being open (as was the usual case - in fact on one season only the Etihad was open!). Behind the sticks was almost deserted and the Etihad was very thin. No way was there any more that day than against Salford at the weekend. Three stands are open these days

[dredgie]

Do the Broncos still count season ticket holders in their attendance figures regardless of wether they turn up or not?