94 replies to this topic

[l'angelo mysterioso]

let me put it another way, do you believe a club like ours or fax will replace any current team in sl under licensing because i dont

How does this relate to the discussion?
Are you suggesting if it wasn't the case everything would be fine?
If no clubs were having trouble with cash then rugby league would be unique in sport.

[intheshed]

it wasn't me who invoked boom and bust.
what could the RFL have done about gthe ###### business decisons taken by the Bulls and Hull KR for instance? The Harris and Mason fisacos must have cost them a fortune. It's thre clubs that need to plan, and act in a responsible way.

I totally agree, but im struggling to reconcile the above with your earlier position that licencing is leading to clubs being run more professionaly.

It appears that one the one hand you are saying look at clubs A,B & C they are run so much more professionaly now because licencing pushes them in that direction. Yet when faced with the mismanagement of X,Y & Z you say of course we cant stop administrators making poor decisions. Getting people to make good decisions and stopping them making bad ones are part of the same process, arn't they? Surely any system can either do both or none?

Of course there will always be failures due to exceptional circumstances that couldn't reasonably be planned for. But thats not the case, Bradford, Crusaders, Wakey, Salford etc.. in none of these cases is anyone suggesting they are victims of bad luck there is a consistent theme, poor decision making. If the system that is supposed, amongst other things i grant you, to help stop these financial problems occuring is incapable of addressing the most common cause can it really be viewed as working in this area?

Edited by intheshed, 12 September 2012 - 06:29 PM.

[sidnee]

There is no consequence for financial mismanagement, a new 'saviour' takes over and the cycle starts again.

Now if there was a guaranteed automatic demotion from current league to the one below (and all the associated penalties, lack of income from sponsorship, lower crowds etc) maybe, just maybe that may deter soe from choosing that path.

[budgiezilla]

l'angelo mysterioso joined totalrlfans.com, so that he could disagree/i know best with every other motherf***er !!
I wish I was so knowlegeable and confident, instead of being a nervous/shy Budgierigar.

[intheshed]

There is no consequence for financial mismanagement, a new 'saviour' takes over and the cycle starts again.

Now if there was a guaranteed automatic demotion from current league to the one below (and all the associated penalties, lack of income from sponsorship, lower crowds etc) maybe, just maybe that may deter soe from choosing that path.

In an ideal world id prefer to see far stronger sporting sanctions than we currently have. Im far from convinced it would have any preventative effect though.

If we take Wakey & Bradford as examples the people sanctioning the spending have been punished. Ted Richardson, Chris Caisley, Peter Hood etc.. they no longer own the clubs, they didnt get a penny from the sale and any directors loans have been lost. If the prospect of that didnt stop them it seems unlikely that relegating the club after they have lost it would have any effect on them.

[Steve Slater]

If no clubs were having trouble with cash then rugby league would be unique in sport.

Isn't that what the ending of P&R was for? Clubs have no fear of relegation, most know they have no chance of winning anything, yet they still can't manage the books. It would be good for the game if Bradford put out a statement that next year they were only going to spend on players what they could afford, and they would expect all the fans who made pledges to stand by them, no matter what the consequences.

[ROVERS83]

In an ideal world id prefer to see far stronger sporting sanctions than we currently have. Im far from convinced it would have any preventative effect though.

If we take Wakey & Bradford as examples the people sanctioning the spending have been punished. Ted Richardson, Chris Caisley, Peter Hood etc.. they no longer own the clubs, they didnt get a penny from the sale and any directors loans have been lost. If the prospect of that didnt stop them it seems unlikely that relegating the club after they have lost it would have any effect on them.

Are you sure about loans etc not being repaid to former directors , I could tell you of various shenanigans that surrounded the richardson family departing belle vue

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I totally agree, but im struggling to reconcile the above with your earlier position that licencing is leading to clubs being run more professionaly.

It appears that one the one hand you are saying look at clubs A,B & C they are run so much more professionaly now because licencing pushes them in that direction. Yet when faced with the mismanagement of X,Y & Z you say of course we cant stop administrators making poor decisions. Getting people to make good decisions and stopping them making bad ones are part of the same process, arn't they? Surely any system can either do both or none?

Of course there will always be failures due to exceptional circumstances that couldn't reasonably be planned for. But thats not the case, Bradford, Crusaders, Wakey, Salford etc.. in none of these cases is anyone suggesting they are victims of bad luck there is a consistent theme, poor decision making. If the system that is supposed, amongst other things i grant you, to help stop these financial problems occuring is incapable of addressing the most common cause can it really be viewed as working in this area?

you can lead a horse to water but...

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Isn't that what the ending of P&R was for? Clubs have no fear of relegation, most know they have no chance of winning anything, yet they still can't manage the books. It would be good for the game if Bradford put out a statement that next year they were only going to spend on players what they could afford, and they would expect all the fans who made pledges to stand by them, no matter what the consequences.

an aspect of it for sure-the dreaded ruinous yo yo syndrome. It also meant that clubs could be introduced to SL strategically: this has been extremely successful in terms of Catalan Dragons, less so with PSG, Gateshead and Crusaders, Workington and Oldham. PSG a bad idea, Gateshead premature introduction of an underfunded club, Crusaders a triumph a triumph of naivety, Workington and OLdham introduced purely because one was in Cumbria one was in the Greter manchester conurbation: both classic yo yo clubs and therefore threadbare in finance, facilities and basic professionalism. Don't forget that promotion and relegation has taken place in the SL era also clubs that have been promoted and relegated.

I agree with you final statement, although I'd guess that many Bulls fans will just be glad that their club has been rescued

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

an aspect of it for sure-the dreaded ruinous yo yo syndrome. It also meant that clubs could be introduced to SL strategically: this has been extremely successful in terms of Catalan Dragons, less so with PSG, Gateshead and Crusaders, Workington and Oldham. PSG a bad idea, Gateshead premature introduction of an underfunded club, Crusaders a triumph a triumph of naivety, Workington and OLdham introduced purely because one was in Cumbria one was in the Greter manchester conurbation: both classic yo yo clubs and therefore threadbare in finance, facilities and basic professionalism. Don't forget that promotion and relegation has taken place in the SL era also clubs that have been promoted and relegated.

I agree with you final statement, although I'd guess that many Bulls fans will just be glad that their club has been rescued

Leaving aside the fact that neither Oldham nor Workington were 'strategic' introductions, 1 success out of 6 (7 if you count both incarnations of Crusaders) is hardly a ringing endorsement of the RFL's strategic nous, And as for threadbare in finance clubs, add to that list Cas (who the RFL bent the rules for to allow them to be promoted back to SL), Salford and Hull KR plus Hudds, Widnes and London totally dependent on 'sugar daddies' and as for Bradford...

So over half the clubs essentially not fit for purpose. What a fantastic endorsement of the success of the SL world.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Leaving aside the fact that neither Oldham nor Workington were 'strategic' introductions, 1 success out of 6 (7 if you count both incarnations of Crusaders) is hardly a ringing endorsement of the RFL's strategic nous, And as for threadbare in finance clubs, add to that list Cas (who the RFL bent the rules for to allow them to be promoted back to SL), Salford and Hull KR plus Hudds, Widnes and London totally dependent on 'sugar daddies' and as for Bradford...

So over half the clubs essentially not fit for purpose. What a fantastic endorsement of the success of the SL world.

it isn't a ringing endorsement. I didn't say it was, in fact I described how it wasn't.
I would suggest that both Oldham and Workington were 'strategic' inclusions because of where they were.

of course the situation would be far better in the pre 1995 structure of professional rugby league, wouldn't it? How do you think the game should have gone forward from then onwards?

How are these clubs not fit for purpose? By the paramaters you have laid out there can hardly be a professional sports club in the country that's fit for purpose including featherstone rovers.

Rugby League has historic issues to deal with related to its survival and growth that go back to 1895, that are unique to it and extremely disadvantageous compared to other sports. I think that what is in place now has many problems associated with it the inability of reactionaries to accept it even after all this time, the conduct of individuals in responsible positions(but nothing like as disastrous as the appalling Bill fallowfield), the nation's economy and so on, but professional rugby league is in a better state now for all those faults than before 1995 when it was eating itself to survive.

[Chappies Dummy]

How does this relate to the discussion?
Are you suggesting if it wasn't the case everything would be fine?
If no clubs were having trouble with cash then rugby league would be unique in sport.

Well your making out that everything is fine and dandy with licensing but while it does have its good points i think in its current form it will eventually kill the game below sl. Featherstone are a success story but how long can we keep it up. Imo the rfl would rather stick with the current teams in sl and if they add teams it will be expansion projects like crusaders not teams like ours.

[LOWFIELD]

I reckon it all went down hill for Bradford when they changed there name from northern to Bulls

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Well your making out that everything is fine and dandy with licensing but while it does have its good points i think in its current form it will eventually kill the game below sl. Featherstone are a success story but how long can we keep it up. Imo the rfl would rather stick with the current teams in sl and if they add teams it will be expansion projects like crusaders not teams like ours.

am I?
I suggest you bother to actually read the posts

[Chappies Dummy]

Fair enuff perhaps it wasnt worded right but you are quick to shoot down people who critisize licensing. Also in your opinion do you think we will ever be in sl and if not how long do you think we can keep being a well run club before the bod get fed up and walk?

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Fair enuff perhaps it wasnt worded right but you are quick to shoot down people who critisize licensing. Also in your opinion do you think we will ever be in sl and if not how long do you think we can keep being a well run club before the bod get fed up and walk?

only if I disagree with the criticism: and 'shooting down' is a bit strong.

I think Rovers will never have a better chance: every day they are becoming more and more unignorable.
Getting into SL isn't even ther biggest battle. It's what happens when you get there. There's no point being a spear carrier. Clubs have to be competitive and have to grow. What was the point in Leigh being in SL foir instanece, especially when the club they replaced was superior? It has taken wakefield Wildcats from 1998 to now to get their act even remotely together. London Broncos have gone from a well supported competitive club to a shadow of their former selves over the past few years. Others have grown. If Rovers get into SL the club has to grow in support and financially and as a business. I put my head in my hands when I read on here about spreading our support base as far as a town or village a few miles away, when we should be gaining interest from all over the country, and when we should be attracting people from a wider cross section of society.

[Robin Evans]

Largely agree with most of that Chris tho I would suggest even Warrington don't gain that much interest from all over the country. Beyond the 62 there are few who will tell you who the current challenge cup holders are. I actually talked about that subject on holiday to the bemusement of other Brits there. It was if I was talking Portugese to them!

But I do agree, the greater challenges will come if we ever do see our club in SL. I just feel that our club is perhaps already stronger than some of the clubs in that competition incl Northern, Salford, London etc, and whilst I'm desparately trying to avoid sending the thread down a well worn path, the degree of unfairness in that will never go away for me.

[budgiezilla]

why keep referring to Leigh when you mention clubs who should not be in SL.
Rugby League did exist prior to Super League you know, it was called the 1st Division, and we actually won the damn thing in 1981 !
We were a bit of a yo-yo club to be fair (in the days of 4 up, 4 down....imagine that !)
Who would you define as a BIG club in the lower leagues, what makes a club (potentially) big anyway in your eyes.
Clubs like Leigh, Workington, Oldham, York, Swinton, Dewsbury, Barrow, Featherstone, Hunslet, Sheffield, Rochdale, and Halifax have all been in the top Division in the past 25 years, they were there on merit, they probably weren't in there for too long, though Oldham, Halifax & Leigh have had good seasons, healthy crowds.
Now most clubs in Championship 1 can't muster a crowd over 1,000 - but surely over a matter of time, with improved performances on the pitch, and knowing that that there would be a chance of getting into Super League eventually, attendances would improve.
Don't have a cystal ball to know how any of the clubs I mentioned might do in SL, but to say that Leigh replaced a 'superior' club in 1...maybe, but Castleford were relegated due to their 'on the field' performances....it's called sport, even Man United have been in the 2nd Division !
You do make some valid points, but it all seems so black & white to you, but other folk make some good suggestions also.
Featherstone Rovers (in my opinion) should be the next club in SL, even though it's a small town, and you would be replacing a superior club ??
Well Fev maybe a 'smaller club' than say Salford/Castleford/etc in 2015, but in 10 years time, who knows? Quite recently we used to beat Hull KR on a regular basis, at New Craven Park in front of 1500 speccys, look at them now (yes I know, there heavily in debt) and that would be my main concern for Fev, Fax, Leigh etc...don't break the bank just to try and be competitive, and sign 12 average 'Aussies' so to speak.
Personally after the first few games, I hated our Super League Season in 2005, a 5 measely points....the pure elation of winning promotion, quickly erased.
But if they keep this licensing system, at least clubs have 3 years to try and be competitive. Personally I would make it every 2 years.....2015 still sounds a long way off !!
Enjoy tonight's game, I'll be there....probably going home a little dejected !!!

[intheshed]

Are you sure about loans etc not being repaid to former directors , I could tell you of various shenanigans that surrounded the richardson family departing belle vue

I dont doubt it! Thinking more really about what happens when the administrators come in, i assume any money still in the club at that point is gone?

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Largely agree with most of that Chris tho I would suggest even Warrington don't gain that much interest from all over the country. Beyond the 62 there are few who will tell you who the current challenge cup holders are. I actually talked about that subject on holiday to the bemusement of other Brits there. It was if I was talking Portugese to them!

But I do agree, the greater challenges will come if we ever do see our club in SL. I just feel that our club is perhaps already stronger than some of the clubs in that competition incl Northern, Salford, London etc, and whilst I'm desparately trying to avoid sending the thread down a well worn path, the degree of unfairness in that will never go away for me.

they probably don't,.
My point is that this is the kind of thing an ambitious club should aim for. Rovers are a famouss name. Go anywhere and mention Featherstone and people have heard of the Rovers. It isn't just a question of support, but in other ways. I don't think probiz are based in Station lane, and their sponsorship portfolio is in all sorts of sports in all sorts of places. It isn't just geography: it's demography as well. The game and the club needs more professional/middle class, upper class people to get behind it.

What you are alluding to would be unfair if it was done maliciously, and not rightly or wrongly in the best interests of the sport.

edit: is your convesation with people on holiday the equivalent of "I've got a mate at work who's a soccer fan and he can't believe what happens in Rugby League." Were the people you were speaking to familiar with the historical issues that beset rugby league?

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 13 September 2012 - 11:17 AM.