80 replies to this topic

[bigtony]

My worry would be people still calling swinton, swinton lions in a few yrs and not just calling them, warringtons feeder club which can happen and then the name gets lost for ever

[Bryce]

That would be the worst case scenario. We'll have to see how the partnership is going to be used before making a judgement.

Pretty much the only reason I watch the Lions is because of the name linking us back to the history of our great club. Without the name, there's nothing left IMO.

[duffymoon]

It would be farcical if we ever fielded a team that contained six players that weren't actually ours!

[bigtony]

That would be the worst case scenario. We'll have to see how the partnership is going to be used before making a judgement.

Pretty much the only reason I watch the Lions is because of the name linking us back to the history of our great club. Without the name, there's nothing left IMO.

And in my opinion thats what the rl want, for whatever reason

[bigtony]

It would be farcical if we ever fielded a team that contained six players that weren't actually ours!

I believe thats going to happen

[mark richardson]

It's not just swinton though is it? Loads of clubs will be doing this.
Even whoever demonuk supports. No point attacking swinton in our own right..this is a rugby league in general debate.

[bigtony]

It's not just swinton though is it? Loads of clubs will be doing this.
Even whoever demonuk supports. No point attacking swinton in our own right..this is a rugby league in general debate.

Apart from 3/4 clubs i think the rest of the champ will down this route

[Bryce]

Fev, Leigh, Sheffield and Fax I would assume. Maybe even Batley.

[PhillH]

Assuming we'll be able to use their conditioners etc, it could be a really good partnership if taken seriously by all parties.

It's all well and good saying that we should be developing our own players, but is that going to keep us in the Championship? It's not really a sport for sentiment, especially not in the Championship. Do we really think that if Karl Ashall, Neil Holland or any of our young players had an outstanding season and ripped up the Chmpionship (A-la chris Hill 2010/11, Leigh - Warrington), that they'd stick around with Swinton because we helped them develop into the best players they can be? I very much doubt it, they'd thank us and probably look back at their time with us in good spirits, but that doesn't help Swinton Lions.

We have heard all the supposed off-field benefits of this sort of arrangement before, with Saints in 2007. None of it actually happened. I remain to be convinced that the story will be any different this time. There is a massive difference between engineering opportunities for Paul Kidd to hob nob with Daniel Anderson / Tony Smith, versus doing the relatively unglamorous hard work that is inescapable if the club is to ever properly grow.

Your second paragraph gets to the heart of the issue. It also demonstrates the key problem pervading in too many places across RL at the moment. This being, clubs being totally cynical in their attitude towards player value, to the point some clubs virtually see themselves as bystanders when it comes to player performance. Looking upon the players as nothing more than disposable commodities, there to be bought and sold at will, like cattle.

On this basis, no person in any sort of employment anywhere would ever receive any sort of training and development, on the basis that they may better themselves (what a shocking thought!) and ultimately leave. Its a culture for backwards-looking companies who lack confidence in their own future, dictates nobody ever goes beyond the call of duty, everyone focusses purely on what money is on offer, and rarely does anyone feel inspired to perform to their best.

Evidence is plentiful to show that the performance of players is a product of the environment that surrounds them. To get a team performing to its best consistently, the players need to be bought into an overall concept of what the club is trying to do, the brand and community that is being represented, to ultimately give true pride in their performance. If there is no context beyond money, you will never get the best out of people.

Its a big reason why Swinton Lions languished in the lower reaches of Championship One for so long, despite being relatively big spenders in that league. Players came in and took the money, that was all it meant to them to play for the Lions. Things improved greatly under Steve McCormack and the improvement was immediate, showing that he at least understands what it takes to motivate players. However there is only so much that a coach can do if the message from the top of the club is that it doesn't really value its own players.

So it is wrong to assume that simply because a handful of dual registered players might become available it will definitely lead to an improvement in performance of the team. There is a significant risk of it destroying that hard won team spirit, potentially a big negative.

The club needs to be very careful indeed that it doesn't push dual reg too far.

It also needs to recognise a partnership in itself will not deliver anything much beyond dual-reg players unless the club is prepared to put proper resources into applying the lessons.

[bigtony]

We have heard all the supposed off-field benefits of this sort of arrangement before, with Saints in 2007. None of it actually happened. I remain to be convinced that the story will be any different this time. There is a massive difference between engineering opportunities for Paul Kidd to hob nob with Daniel Anderson / Tony Smith, versus doing the relatively unglamorous hard work that is inescapable if the club is to ever properly grow.

Your second paragraph gets to the heart of the issue. It also demonstrates the key problem pervading in too many places across RL at the moment. This being, clubs being totally cynical in their attitude towards player value, to the point some clubs virtually see themselves as bystanders when it comes to player performance. Looking upon the players as nothing more than disposable commodities, there to be bought and sold at will, like cattle.

On this basis, no person in any sort of employment anywhere would ever receive any sort of training and development, on the basis that they may better themselves (what a shocking thought!) and ultimately leave. Its a culture for backwards-looking companies who lack confidence in their own future, dictates nobody ever goes beyond the call of duty, everyone focusses purely on what money is on offer, and rarely does anyone feel inspired to perform to their best.

Evidence is plentiful to show that the performance of players is a product of the environment that surrounds them. To get a team performing to its best consistently, the players need to be bought into an overall concept of what the club is trying to do, the brand and community that is being represented, to ultimately give true pride in their performance. If there is no context beyond money, you will never get the best out of people.

Its a big reason why Swinton Lions languished in the lower reaches of Championship One for so long, despite being relatively big spenders in that league. Players came in and took the money, that was all it meant to them to play for the Lions. Things improved greatly under Steve McCormack and the improvement was immediate, showing that he at least understands what it takes to motivate players. However there is only so much that a coach can do if the message from the top of the club is that it doesn't really value its own players.

So it is wrong to assume that simply because a handful of dual registered players might become available it will definitely lead to an improvement in performance of the team. There is a significant risk of it destroying that hard won team spirit, potentially a big negative.

The club needs to be very careful indeed that it doesn't push dual reg too far.

It also needs to recognise a partnership in itself will not deliver anything much beyond dual-reg players unless the club is prepared to put proper resources into applying the lessons.

Great post

[GLENNGARY]

What hasn't been mentioned in this debate is player recruitment. We are going to lose a good proportion of our current squad and they are going to have to be replaced, but from where? The better class players will and are already going to the top clubs in the championship leaving scarce resources for the rest, also remembering that four more clubs will be joining this coming season, all wanting to strengthen there squads. there just isn't enough players of quality to go around. If we can build a competitive team based around d/reg players from Warrington and climb the table. Maybe next year it will put us in a better position to compete for the better players, just a thought?

[duffymoon]

It's a fair point Glenn,.We do not have the resources to compete consistently with the top teams in the championship.There is little doubt that an influx of Warrington players would strengthen us considerably and hopefully this would be reflected in our results.Ultimately most fans want to see a winning team which would increase our fan base and hopefully increase revenue for the club.

[marshy1]

The other thing in all this is what would fans be saying if Swinton did nothing and sat back, relegation a possibility. I just wonder how many would be happy we hadn't had a link up then.?

[duffymoon]

I just hope that common sense prevails and we don't see teams fielding a ridiculous number of players from their affiliated Super League clubs.Whilst the RFL have issued a directive on this maybe the Championship clubs themselves could reach some kind of agreement.

Edited by duffymoon, 12 September 2012 - 08:12 PM.

[Bryce]

So we agree Phil that if the partnership is taken seriously, then it could be of great benefit to the club? (And I believe it's not just dual reg, but use of certain facilities and coaching methods).

I wouldn't neccessarily say all such clubs were "backwards-thinking". Should we offer them more money to keep them? That would lead to complete player power. These lads have to earn a living, if Leigh or Featherstone, or anyone can offer them significantly more money then why would they stay at Swinton? Team spirit wouldn't, that's just not plausible.

I'd also say it's harsh to state that we had no team spirit before Steve Mac turned up. There's a fair few players that are still with us from before that, Watto, Hurst, Daz and Richie Hawkyard, Reay, etc. And the P/O run In 2006 was pretty much all team spirit.

The job has to be done off the field for top players to want to come and stay at the club. But in the short term, we have to ensure our safety in the Championship. The D/R players, if used correctly, will help us do that.

I know that the lads that came into the club on D/R had a great rapport with the players signed onto Swinton's cards. And I agree that it would be foolish to have too many come in. But 4-5 wouldn't be too bad would it?

To be fair, it's going to happen whether we like it or not, hopefully it'll work out the best for Swinton, Championship status is a must.

[lions4eva]

At some points this season with our injury problems going into big games,we would have loved an extra couple of D/R players. Lets not forget they will give 100% as they are playing for their futures in the game. Players such as Forster actually loved playing for Swinton this year, you can tell from his Tweets etc. What makes them anything other than a Swinton player??

If we signed 4 players from Halifax on one year contracts, i don't think people would be this critical.

Lets give it a chance before snapping its neck.

Edited by lions4eva, 13 September 2012 - 11:14 AM.

[PhillH]

Yet again short-termist thinking rules the roost, the rugby league disease. Everyone (including management at various Championship clubs) gets fixated on the possibility of the arrival of a few new players, but is that really the overall effect?

There is nothing to prevent "use of certain facilities and coaching methods" anyway. You don't need a formal partnership to achieve that. If a Championship club wishes to develop itself by mimicking what happens in Super League that can be done already. Swinton Lions shouldn't need to take notes off Warrington to determine where it can improve itself. I could give you a long list of worthwhile improvements right now!

A formal partnership of this nature is not going to force any Super League club to do anything against its voluntary will, to assist the Championship club. The Super League club will only go so far as it wants to. So in aspects other than dual reg players, there is no value in partnering. You could do it anyway. Tony Smith is an open minded guy, just ring him up.

The concept of partnering has not come about to help Championship clubs. Its all about the self interest of SL clubs, a majority of whom want to cut their cost base and see this as a way so to do, while also retaining the registrations of a generation of young players whom would otherwise have to be promoted to first team level or released.

So perhaps the true effect is that the best of the players that would've been released from SL and gravitated towards the Championship anyway, and become bone fide Championship players, are now only going to be available as dual reg.

This way the SL clubs get to have their cake and eat it. To some extent they will be able to dictate selection policy to the Championship club, as we saw last season with Forster coming and going as it suited Saints. If a player does well or the SL suffers injuries, players will disappear overnight, to the whim of the SL club. They don't want to spend the money on these young players anymore, but they still want first dibs.

In fairness to Warrington, it is a club that has taken development of young players seriously for a number of years and I suspect they would probably have preferred to stick with the old system but it has been forced upon them due to weaknesses elsewhere in SL.

There are a number of risks from a Swinton Lions perspective. These need to be recognised and managed, which will require some insightful judgements. The track record of not only Swinton Lions but also other clubs generally shows that short-termism and self interest nearly always rule the roost when it comes to such strategic decisions. The impact is nearly always negative in the long run.

I prefer the way football does these things. Yes the big clubs loan out promising youngsters to get experience, but its done as loans. The rules surrounding loans in football seem much better designed in protecting the sanctity of competition and each club's unique identity.

[Bryce]

Unless you follow Watford hey Phil? (not to spark a football related debate).

If we could employ the rules football use then I think it would also be beneficial. 10 players is extreme, but we'll have to see what happens. I don't think Steve Mac will want a team full of Warrington players and I'm under the impression that it wouldn't be forced upon him. I'd like to think not anyway!

[bigtony]

Unless you follow Watford hey Phil? (not to spark a football related debate).

If we could employ the rules football use then I think it would also be beneficial. 10 players is extreme, but we'll have to see what happens. I don't think Steve Mac will want a team full of Warrington players and I'm under the impression that it wouldn't be forced upon him. I'd like to think not anyway!

Well it does make you wonder, i mean theres only been 2 resignings/signings upto now when other champ clubs are well underway into next yrs squad

[mark richardson]

I think short termism could be used to describe some of the views on here too
We are killing this idea with criticism before its even had chance to be tried.
Who knows how it will work out?
How often did the club get criticised for not making dual reg signings early last season by the very same people who now think it's a bad thing.
How often do the club get criticised for doing nothing?
Now we do something, publicise it and guess what...it's wrong!
I for one have reservations and can see benefits as well.
Like I said before every club will be in this position. We are in it with the best club in Britain. Lets give it a chance.