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Hillsborough (merged threads)


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#61 Futtocks

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:04 PM

Breaking on the BBC is that BoJo has said he is "very, very sorry".


No word yet from Heffer, though.

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn’t work if it isn’t open. Frank Zappa (1940 - 1993)


#62 chuffer

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 06:49 PM

Scepticism (by me included) about scousers and their motives for anything and everything they always whinge about.


The first part of that sentence seems like a brave admission that i respect you for.....somehow the latter part of the sentence negates that somehow......what are you saying?

#63 Trojan

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 06:52 PM

Isn't odd that in London if BoJo was leader the Tory vote goes up but in the north the Tory vote drops still further? Strange that, can't think why.

Perhaps it's because the London Evening Boris doesn't circulate in north of Watford
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#64 Jerry the Berry

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:50 PM

In my humble opinion, what occurred today achieved two things

1) those present at the game and indeed the people of merseyside, can after 23 years feel exonerated of blame, for any of the allegations (unsubstantiated) leveled against them

2) the families of those that lost loved ones, now have a direction to go to persue closure for their loss of loved ones

as an aside but relevant to 1 and 2

those that were responsible/culpable for the deaths of 96 people, hopefully will now face justice for their actions/inactions.

whether families who suffered loss will actually be at rest is unknown.............but the families who have been deceived for so long, deserve the chance of justice, doing what it should do to find out.


Well said Iain.

I'm sure some sort of closure can only come for the families of those who lost their lives on that awful day when justice is now seen to be done and I hope it's forthcoming sooner rather than later.

#65 Griff9of13

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 09:04 AM

Norman Bettison just doesn't get it does he? link
"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

#66 Richard de la Riviere

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 11:50 AM

Irvine Patnick, MP for Sheffield Hallam at the time claimed fans were urinating on police who were helping stircken fans from a balcony above:

Here's his Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia..../Irvine_Patnick

In 1994 he was knighted.

Here's a petition for him to be stripped of his knighthood: http://councillors.l...39&HPID=4397139

#67 Trojan

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 05:58 PM

Apparently Ingham was pedling the same tale on behalf of his mistress
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#68 JohnM

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 06:48 AM

evidence, if more were needed, that the "establishment" has in inbuilt propensity to always believe the police account of things.

#69 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 09:51 AM

evidence, if more were needed, that the "establishment" has in inbuilt propensity to always believe the police account of things.

I think it worked well for the Thatcher government.
She gave them a 45% pay rise as soon as she was elected.
The police weren't called Thatcher's Boot Boys for nothing
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#70 JohnM

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 11:10 AM

so she was no different to any other PMs past or present, after all.

#71 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 11:49 AM

so she was no different to any other PMs past or present, after all.


I don't know Joihn

the tories have a long lasting constituency in the police and the situation was a particular one.

there was going to be a lot of civil unrest as her policies unfolded: and she needed enforcers. The police were already a law unto themselves-remember the west midlands crime squad? And various non terrorists banged up, the Olewale case and so on. They 'dealt with' complaints against them themselves. I think the police got away with a lot whoever was in power as you suggest, but the Thatcher government created an unchallengeable praetorian guard. It's conduct has only really been begun to be addressed since the Stephen Lawrence case
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#72 JohnM

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 12:39 PM

Understood. In addition, before Thatcher, it was always regarded in my area, Manchester and East Lancs that magistrates would always side with the police. I would like to think that the recent Hillsborough revelations would result in some changes, Somehow, though, I doubt it.

Further thought. What effect will elected Police Commissioners have? If Prescott gets elected a Humberside Police Commissioner, surely he'd be willing and able to challenge things.

Edited by JohnM, 16 September 2012 - 01:17 PM.


#73 Trojan

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 03:48 PM

I think it worked well for the Thatcher government.
She gave them a 45% pay rise as soon as she was elected.
The police weren't called Thatcher's Boot Boys for nothing

Nail on head!
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#74 Trojan

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:01 PM

Further thought. What effect will elected Police Commissioners have? If Prescott gets elected a Humberside Police Commissioner, surely he'd be willing and able to challenge things.

I doubt it. The problem as far as I can see is that the police are in bed with the Tories, but Labour are frightened to challenge the police for fear of being shown to be "soft on crime" Blair himself backed away from any confrontation with the police. In the past when the police were more like those they were policing things were different. The police enforced the law even handedly - but one of the first things the Thatcher government did was give them a huge pay rise to "keep them on side" during the troubles that were sure to follow as her plans were put into action. Not for nothing did the police taunt the striking miners by waving their wage packets. Murdoch also got his way at Wapping courtesy of the police. Although I suspect the print unions were slightly less deserving than the miners of fairer treatment.
I think the South Yorkshire Police (and many other forces) genuinely did believe they could act with impunity - right up to the present day. TBH I reckon it will take a Tory government to sort out the police - perhaps this Hillsborough thing will give them the opportunity. But I wouldn't count on it. With unemployment bound to rise from here and the cuts really about to bite, who else is going to pull their chestnuts out of the fire if (when?) things get really tough if not the police?
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#75 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:10 PM

Understood. In addition, before Thatcher, it was always regarded in my area, Manchester and East Lancs that magistrates would always side with the police. I would like to think that the recent Hillsborough revelations would result in some changes, Somehow, though, I doubt it.

Further thought. What effect will elected Police Commissioners have? If Prescott gets elected a Humberside Police Commissioner, surely he'd be willing and able to challenge things.


Good question. Politicians like to get re-elected and this always affects decision making remarkably.
The police always cl;ose ranks anyway.
Only one officer objected to having nhis statement altered after Hillsborough and he left the force soon after.

The whole scenario of how football fans should be treated stank from all sorts of directions. The Popplewell report after the Bradford fire was insufficiently acted on-hence Hillsbotough was still a death trap. Football was, with some justification associated with Hooliganism and 'penning them in' considered all 'they' were good for. There was more political milkeage in being on the side of ther police-which is what Thatcher did. The clubs were apathetic in providing civilkiswed facilities. before the fire Bradford had recieved an unfgavourable report from the council but didn't act on it presumably because it meant spending money that they could spend on players. The area undert the stand hadn't been cleared of rubbish for decades. Bramall lane was known as being dangerous but complaints were ignored and the ground had no certificate-yet the FA still used it. The behaviour of ther police especially at high level was abominable
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#76 TwoBlues

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:16 PM

Were these Thatchers Boot Boys the 'common bobby' or the 'command structure' as mentioned by Trevor Hicks,who lost 2 daughters at Hillsborough ?
Doesn't the expression 'Boot Boys' first emerge in a song sung by soccer hooligans ?
As it is apparently political,does Labour MP Jack Straw get off for free despite the 'victims of rendition' ? He allowed/demanded an enquiry.What was that result ? Another Labour Home Secretary,from Sheffield and former mayor,demanded the sacking of the Chief Constable of Humberside following the Soham murders.The Police Authority in Labour ruling Humberside backed their CC.
Should I be calling for action against Blunkett for neglecting his duty,while he was seeing to another man's wife British born suicide bombers,mass-killers,were planning and preparing their murderous intent in London ? ( I know Reid was Home Sec.on the day )
So,a tragedy in a stadium without a safety certificate,when police communications were antiquated;medical staff,training and numbers were considerably less than they are now and when all the other stadium disasters,including Ibrox in the 70's,never led to mass allegations against Police,I now discover the British public to have great vision of Utopia with their hindsight.

Oh,and as for the photograph on this thread,it seems to demonstrate an element of decency in shielding people from view of the loss of life.
With the Bishop of Liverpool chairing the independent panel it would be in contrast with police having outside investigation.
What word was used prior to pinching 'closure' from America ?

I'm pleased for Lord Falconer getting himself a nice little earner - must be some way behind Blair and his 'earnings'.
Just like Prescott - Labour people who like a 'title'.

#77 Trojan

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:38 PM

Good question. Politicians like to get re-elected and this always affects decision making remarkably.
The police always cl;ose ranks anyway.
Only one officer objected to having nhis statement altered after Hillsborough and he left the force soon after.

The whole scenario of how football fans should be treated stank from all sorts of directions. The Popplewell report after the Bradford fire was insufficiently acted on-hence Hillsbotough was still a death trap. Football was, with some justification associated with Hooliganism and 'penning them in' considered all 'they' were good for. There was more political milkeage in being on the side of ther police-which is what Thatcher did. The clubs were apathetic in providing civilkiswed facilities. before the fire Bradford had recieved an unfgavourable report from the council but didn't act on it presumably because it meant spending money that they could spend on players. The area undert the stand hadn't been cleared of rubbish for decades. Bramall lane was known as being dangerous but complaints were ignored and the ground had no certificate-yet the FA still used it. The behaviour of ther police especially at high level was abominable

I once saw a copper threaten a soccer fan on Albion Street in Leeds. The language he used was appalling. Don't get me wrong, I didn't see what had caused him to behave in such a manner, but TBH the soccer fan appeared just to be walking down Albion Street when this copper grabbed him and pushed him up against a wall.
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#78 Trojan

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:44 PM

Were these Thatchers Boot Boys the 'common bobby' or the 'command structure' as mentioned by Trevor Hicks,who lost 2 daughters at Hillsborough ?
Doesn't the expression 'Boot Boys' first emerge in a song sung by soccer hooligans ?
As it is apparently political,does Labour MP Jack Straw get off for free despite the 'victims of rendition' ? He allowed/demanded an enquiry.What was that result ? Another Labour Home Secretary,from Sheffield and former mayor,demanded the sacking of the Chief Constable of Humberside following the Soham murders.The Police Authority in Labour ruling Humberside backed their CC.
Should I be calling for action against Blunkett for neglecting his duty,while he was seeing to another man's wife British born suicide bombers,mass-killers,were planning and preparing their murderous intent in London ? ( I know Reid was Home Sec.on the day )
So,a tragedy in a stadium without a safety certificate,when police communications were antiquated;medical staff,training and numbers were considerably less than they are now and when all the other stadium disasters,including Ibrox in the 70's,never led to mass allegations against Police,I now discover the British public to have great vision of Utopia with their hindsight.

Oh,and as for the photograph on this thread,it seems to demonstrate an element of decency in shielding people from view of the loss of life.
With the Bishop of Liverpool chairing the independent panel it would be in contrast with police having outside investigation.
What word was used prior to pinching 'closure' from America ?

I'm pleased for Lord Falconer getting himself a nice little earner - must be some way behind Blair and his 'earnings'.
Just like Prescott - Labour people who like a 'title'.

But in none of the other disasters you mention has it been proved that the police and coroner altered evidence after the fact. You can berate Labour politiicans all you like and some of it is justified. The fact is though that this occurred under a Tory government, and Thatcher, Tory MP Irvine Patnik, and press secretary Bernard Ingham have all been shown as complicit in covering up what happened. Personally when Blair got in in 1997 with such a huge majority I'd have thought that all the dirty washing from the eighties could have been brought out. It wasn't presumably because as I said Blair (like most Labour politicians) was scared stiff of being seen as anti police.
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#79 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 06:04 PM

Were these Thatchers Boot Boys the 'common bobby' or the 'command structure' as mentioned by Trevor Hicks,who lost 2 daughters at Hillsborough ?
Doesn't the expression 'Boot Boys' first emerge in a song sung by soccer hooligans ?
As it is apparently political,does Labour MP Jack Straw get off for free despite the 'victims of rendition' ? He allowed/demanded an enquiry.What was that result ? Another Labour Home Secretary,from Sheffield and former mayor,demanded the sacking of the Chief Constable of Humberside following the Soham murders.The Police Authority in Labour ruling Humberside backed their CC.
Should I be calling for action against Blunkett for neglecting his duty,while he was seeing to another man's wife British born suicide bombers,mass-killers,were planning and preparing their murderous intent in London ? ( I know Reid was Home Sec.on the day )
So,a tragedy in a stadium without a safety certificate,when police communications were antiquated;medical staff,training and numbers were considerably less than they are now and when all the other stadium disasters,including Ibrox in the 70's,never led to mass allegations against Police,I now discover the British public to have great vision of Utopia with their hindsight.

Oh,and as for the photograph on this thread,it seems to demonstrate an element of decency in shielding people from view of the loss of life.
With the Bishop of Liverpool chairing the independent panel it would be in contrast with police having outside investigation.
What word was used prior to pinching 'closure' from America ?

I'm pleased for Lord Falconer getting himself a nice little earner - must be some way behind Blair and his 'earnings'.
Just like Prescott - Labour people who like a 'title'.


thre command structure failed, the response from the emergency services compl;etely inadequate. 'The common bobby' was with one or two erxceptions willing to engage in the cover up orchestrated by their superiors the same common bobbies who had a nice littl;e earner and had pretty much a free hand in the miners' strike four years before.

What has the origins of the term boot boys got to do with anything? Was there evidence of hooliganism in the leppings lane end when this tragedy took place? The whole pack of lies whipped up by the media centres on this.
The conduct, with exceptions of the police was reprehensible in this tragedy. Police had been equipped with personal radios for decades when this happened. Briefings before games even then would have involved thorough radio checks. There was no communication because nobody was doing any communicating until it was too late.

Police officers are trained in first aid without exception, including CPR. If you look at the photography you mention, there are people being given it, people not doing anything, and there is no one evidently dead. If the police officers are shleding the people from the 'loss of life' they aren't doing much of a job of it considering the number of officers and the gap betyween them: meanwhile at least some of them should have been helping the 'civilians' give CPR or help in other practical ways.

But even that doesn't hit at the heart of this scandal: it was the corruption of the police from a high level downward and the complicity of tghe media and the government then and for years afterwards.

What do you think shouild have been done? Should we have believed what was in the Sun? Should we have supported the Police regardless like Thatcher did then and others have done since?
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#80 Jasper

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 07:02 PM

She gave them a 45% pay rise as soon as she was elected.


Lets not let facts get in the way shall we. I'm assuming the 45% pay rise you are on about was the Edmund Davis report? The one started and agreed upon by the Labour party, and only implemented by the Tories because they had come into power after the 'old' labour party Home Secretary Meryn Rees had agreed to implement it but was then ouit of power.

Only one officer objected to having nhis statement altered after Hillsborough and he left the force soon after.


It seems the fact that police involved in major incidents amending/altering their statements was common practice and common knowledge at the time. Lord Justice Taylor certainly knew about it. Jack Straw ordered an Inquiry into this practice when it was first mentioned and that didn't find anything wrong in this process of statement gathering at major incidents. The way it was described is this. Immediately after the incident a policeman writes down his notes in freehand on a statement form. Days later the statement is typed up, but he could then be asked to add anything else he may have remembered or seen on that day. He could also be asked or even prompted, quite lawfully, if he had seen a particular thing. If he did he could add that info to the typed statement as well. I believe this was pounced upon by some lawyers and press as being an altered statement, ie the hand written one is different from the typed one. Nowadays the officer would be asked to submit an extra statement, but in them days that was the practice.