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Championship One to feature nine clubs in 2013

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#41 keighley

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 02:57 PM

I agree with a lot of what you say, and yes, it could have been planned better. But i don't think those at the top end of decision making have learned from past lessons.
I know all about clubs going to the wall, my family were involved with the original Hunslet club on both the playing and supporting side since its inception. But one of the main contributing factors to their downfall was the regeneration of the area and the hard core of the support been scattered around, some, no doubt closer to a successful Leeds united side or dare I say Leeds RL.
Some of the sides you mention, particularly in the latter years had little if no following in their death throes, wasn't it Southend who got something like 60 people for a game v Huddersfield?
There is need for expansion, but right now the RFL needto be looking at more local issues, for now, it's no good setting up three clubs in the south if we lose two in its traditional heartland.

.


Yes, we don't need to lose clubs EVER, from anywhere but it will happen inevitably. I don't know how the establishment of these new clubs will negatively affect Northern strugglers though. I didn't think the RFL was bankrolling the expansion. I think they have to sink or swim on their own without RFL funding.

Ah, funding. There's the rub. The game dosn't have enough money and needs desperately to raise more to assist SL strugglers, current CC strugglers and expansion teams. TV, sponsorship and investor money all need targeting and increasing BUt is it possible ? Once the ecomony improves, I hope so.

Hunslet, Swinton and Oldham are sad cases. Great RL towns, with great histories. Hunslet are unique in, as you say, the whole town/suburb just up and all but vanished. Then there was the way Parkside was lost. That was very sad. There was plenty of room for rebuilding and regeneration there but the loss of it and the consequent relocations to Elland Road, Batley etc coupled with the dismantling of the town just about finished them. The Phoenix is an apt bird for them though. You can never say die until you put a stake through the heart of RL clubs. they are incredibly resilient.

Oldham also, what a great history, still producing top class players from the town. They, too, like Hunslet were wanderers following the loss of their ground. Their efforts at regrowth had been stymied by a succession of unfortunate grand final defeats. I hope they win CC1 next year.

Swinton, another of the four cup winning triumvirate. Once again they lost their ground, went walkabout, and are still not back in Swinton. Let's hope this Agecroft ground comes off and they are able finally to regroup. After all, rumour has it Salford Council are going to invest in the Reds so the Blues have a right to expect some assistance.

To be fair, and to repeat myself, which I'm good at, I don,t think the expansion in CC1 affects these heartlands teams as there is no funding to be had for either group.

#42 bowes

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 03:02 PM

The RFL are funding expansion clubs but at the exact same rate as they're funding Oldham and Rochdale and less than the Championship clubs. Incidentally the money spend on the 4 extra Championship clubs is roughly that saved from ending the failed Toulouse experiment.

#43 stewpot01

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 03:05 PM

Yes, we don't need to lose clubs EVER, from anywhere but it will happen inevitably. I don't know how the establishment of these new clubs will negatively affect Northern strugglers though. I didn't think the RFL was bankrolling the expansion. I think they have to sink or swim on their own without RFL funding.

Ah, funding. There's the rub. The game dosn't have enough money and needs desperately to raise more to assist SL strugglers, current CC strugglers and expansion teams. TV, sponsorship and investor money all need targeting and increasing BUt is it possible ? Once the ecomony improves, I hope so.

Hunslet, Swinton and Oldham are sad cases. Great RL towns, with great histories. Hunslet are unique in, as you say, the whole town/suburb just up and all but vanished. Then there was the way Parkside was lost. That was very sad. There was plenty of room for rebuilding and regeneration there but the loss of it and the consequent relocations to Elland Road, Batley etc coupled with the dismantling of the town just about finished them. The Phoenix is an apt bird for them though. You can never say die until you put a stake through the heart of RL clubs. they are incredibly resilient.

Oldham also, what a great history, still producing top class players from the town. They, too, like Hunslet were wanderers following the loss of their ground. Their efforts at regrowth had been stymied by a succession of unfortunate grand final defeats. I hope they win CC1 next year.

Swinton, another of the four cup winning triumvirate. Once again they lost their ground, went walkabout, and are still not back in Swinton. Let's hope this Agecroft ground comes off and they are able finally to regroup. After all, rumour has it Salford Council are going to invest in the Reds so the Blues have a right to expect some assistance.

To be fair, and to repeat myself, which I'm good at, I don,t think the expansion in CC1 affects these heartlands teams as there is no funding to be had for either group.


Excellent post :)

#44 keighley

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 03:33 PM

The RFL are funding expansion clubs but at the exact same rate as they're funding Oldham and Rochdale and less than the Championship clubs. Incidentally the money spend on the 4 extra Championship clubs is roughly that saved from ending the failed Toulouse experiment.


Thank you for that info Mr Bowes. I wasn't aware that the expansion teams were getting funding, so, I guess Stewpot 01 has a point in that, if they weren't funding the expansion teams there would be more to share with existing CC teams. I'm still in favour of the expansion though, just wish it had been planned and executed a little better.

#45 bowes

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 03:35 PM

My concern with the new expansion clubs is where they will get the players of that level from. If it weren't for SL scrapping their U20s I don't think it would even be possible.

#46 Stag Fan

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 08:00 PM

The RFL are funding expansion clubs but at the exact same rate as they're funding Oldham and Rochdale and less than the Championship clubs. Incidentally the money spend on the 4 extra Championship clubs is roughly that saved from ending the failed Toulouse experiment.

Thank you for that info Mr Bowes. I wasn't aware that the expansion teams were getting funding, so, I guess Stewpot 01 has a point in that, if they weren't funding the expansion teams there would be more to share with existing CC teams. I'm still in favour of the expansion though, just wish it had been planned and executed a little better.


The funding being spoken about is the central funding that all clubs get. CC & CC1 clubs............. not specific to so called expansion clubs.
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#47 Hornetto

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 02:09 PM

I'm sorry, but the view from inside is that this looks and feels like another extaordinary RFL f * c k up


I know how difficult it is for supporters of massive Championship super-powers like Keighley and Workington to appreciate the expected issues of life in CC1 next year (aka 'The League of Slow Deathâ„¢') but even the most blinkered may concede that 8 home games is hardly sufficient to build momentum and grow attendances. 8 games randomly scattered across the summer isn't the stuff that builds habit and attachment.

Yes it's only 'one game fewer' - but every opportunity to draw revenue from the gate, programme-sales, half-time-draw tickets etc has to be leapt on like a seagull on a chip at our level because every penny counts. As a broad rule, if you add a nought to your attendance, you get the revenue per game, so if we lose one game with an anticipated attendance of 350, that's £3,500 wiped off our revenue for the year.

And if you start extrapolating that to the total number of games, you can see the kind of figures teams at this level are working with.

I've no objection to playing teams three times, but then you have the issue of who plays who, where and how the revenue of that third game is distributed. If we played Oldham at home for a second time, we'd expect a decent crowd - but it would be unfair on Oldham to receive no revenue from that third game as they would have no equivalent.

Four times is an option, but we struggle to get our supporters up for a trip to Neath once - never mind twice. And I'm sure Skolars players and staff wouldn't much fancy dragging themselves up the M1/M6 twice to play us or Oldham. Again. And it's not overly attractive to fans watching such a small pool of teams either.

It's also worth noting that - while the RFL will be funding travel in CC1 next year (approx season cost around £4,500), the main grant from the RFL will be almost halved - to the point where clubs may be compelled to review the number of staff they employ to run even the basics of an off-field operation.

The Northampton situation was a debacle - yes they never 'existed', but until Oxford run out next year, neither do they (Gloucestershire AG, just about make the cut as a 'club', having the basis of a successful student side to lean on).

Having seen Coventry battered at Hudds Underbank at weekend, it's clear that, in terms of playing ability, they are way short of stepping up. Hemel, on the other hand, look far better placed to compete. Indeed, in reality, Hemel is the only proper club looking to 'step-up' - and, for me, that is the sort of provenance that any expansion club should have.

And, as for why people single out Hornets and Oldham for mention, I like to think that, as 'traditional heartland clubs' - and, originally, NU founder clubs - we give the League of Slow Deathâ„¢ a bit of old-skool credibility ;)

You can all now jump-around in an agitated fashion.

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#48 Manx RL

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 02:25 PM

Reasons?


You would be happy to see the championship padded out with super league clubs youth teams?

Championship won by Leeds u23s?
Runners up Wigan u23s?

It would be a full on challenge to sell any c1 team v Fev u23s to spectators and sponsors. A challenge many clubs can ill afford.


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#49 stewpot01

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 02:44 PM

I'm sorry, but the view from inside is that this looks and feels like another extaordinary RFL f * c k up


I know how difficult it is for supporters of massive Championship super-powers like Keighley and Workington to appreciate the expected issues of life in CC1 next year (aka 'The League of Slow Deathâ„¢') but even the most blinkered may concede that 8 home games is hardly sufficient to build momentum and grow attendances. 8 games randomly scattered across the summer isn't the stuff that builds habit and attachment.

Yes it's only 'one game fewer' - but every opportunity to draw revenue from the gate, programme-sales, half-time-draw tickets etc has to be leapt on like a seagull on a chip at our level because every penny counts. As a broad rule, if you add a nought to your attendance, you get the revenue per game, so if we lose one game with an anticipated attendance of 350, that's £3,500 wiped off our revenue for the year.

And if you start extrapolating that to the total number of games, you can see the kind of figures teams at this level are working with.

I've no objection to playing teams three times, but then you have the issue of who plays who, where and how the revenue of that third game is distributed. If we played Oldham at home for a second time, we'd expect a decent crowd - but it would be unfair on Oldham to receive no revenue from that third game as they would have no equivalent.

Four times is an option, but we struggle to get our supporters up for a trip to Neath once - never mind twice. And I'm sure Skolars players and staff wouldn't much fancy dragging themselves up the M1/M6 twice to play us or Oldham. Again. And it's not overly attractive to fans watching such a small pool of teams either.

It's also worth noting that - while the RFL will be funding travel in CC1 next year (approx season cost around £4,500), the main grant from the RFL will be almost halved - to the point where clubs may be compelled to review the number of staff they employ to run even the basics of an off-field operation.

The Northampton situation was a debacle - yes they never 'existed', but until Oxford run out next year, neither do they (Gloucestershire AG, just about make the cut as a 'club', having the basis of a successful student side to lean on).

Having seen Coventry battered at Hudds Underbank at weekend, it's clear that, in terms of playing ability, they are way short of stepping up. Hemel, on the other hand, look far better placed to compete. Indeed, in reality, Hemel is the only proper club looking to 'step-up' - and, for me, that is the sort of provenance that any expansion club should have.

And, as for why people single out Hornets and Oldham for mention, I like to think that, as 'traditional heartland clubs' - and, originally, NU founder clubs - we give the League of Slow Deathâ„¢ a bit of old-skool credibility ;)

You can all now jump-around in an agitated fashion.



Nobody can argue with any of that :)

#50 keighley

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:08 PM

I agree with Hornetto. This has all the hallmarks of a major mess. It is absolutely clear to anybody with a brain that there will not be enough fixtures for continuity for revenue for CC1 to make apositive impact.

I have seen no indication that the RFL are addressing that problem. They should be and , at least a rider to the press release re Northampton, should have given the public and the other CC1 clubs, a hint that they are aware of and dealing with changes to the fixture list necessary to solve those problems raised.

Oldham and Rochdale need to get a promotion spot next season. Their historical standing in the game means, I think, that their supporters expect to be in a higher level and will not support them down there whereas the other clubs have no experience or history of operatiing at a highe level and and their support will be ok with that level.

Keighley and Super power are not words I would have ever expected to be in the same sentence. You quite made my day.

#51 THUNDERNEWS

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:13 PM

Oldham and Rochdale need to get a promotion spot next season. Their historical standing in the game means, I think, that their supporters expect to be in a higher level and will not support them down there whereas the other clubs have no experience or history of operatiing at a highe level and and their support will be ok with that level.


Wonderful statement.

Truly, gobsmackingly wonderful

:rolleyes:
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#52 keighley

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:26 PM

Wonderful statement.

Truly, gobsmackingly wonderful

:rolleyes:


Sorry, Thunderman, your team have been in all three divisions of course, but you have no historical legacy and expectation that their public attach to Hornets and Roughyeds.

#53 THUNDERNEWS

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:45 PM

Sorry, Thunderman, your team have been in all three divisions of course, but you have no historical legacy and expectation that their public attach to Hornets and Roughyeds.


I think I understand your point about expectation. Are you thinking that by getting promotion to the Championship that crowds will come back to watch Rochdale or Oldham? Surely this goes for clubs like Crusaders and Scorpions too. Their public are used to watching Super League / Championship (National League 1) RL.

Regarding historical legacy, I honestly don't think this has anything to do with it. It doesn't seem to have helped either of the clubs in recent years so why would it suddenly start now? If it did or would, common sense says that that 'legacy' would have already been 'used'.
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#54 keighley

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:17 PM

I think I understand your point about expectation. Are you thinking that by getting promotion to the Championship that crowds will come back to watch Rochdale or Oldham? Surely this goes for clubs like Crusaders and Scorpions too. Their public are used to watching Super League / Championship (National League 1) RL.

Regarding historical legacy, I honestly don't think this has anything to do with it. It doesn't seem to have helped either of the clubs in recent years so why would it suddenly start now? If it did or would, common sense says that that 'legacy' would have already been 'used'.


It applies to Oldham more than Hornets, but they have been a top team in the past and were in SL/1st Division at the start of SL and for some seasons before. The RL public of Oldham know this and are not prepared to come to support their team at CCl level. They have higher expectations of Oldham rugby and they have SL options very close by.

North Wales and South Wales and, with respect Gateshead and the expansion teams have had very little exposure to top flight rugby ( 1 season each). The supporters are happy just to have a team to support at all and will come in expectation of CC1 rugby being the best deal for them. That is not to say that they don't want success or promotion but it's not the culturally expected norm for those teams.

It's not that the heritage helps Oldham or Rochdale, in fact, just the opposite, it's the heritage and expectation that comes with it that deters their fans from supporting their team at CC1 level, they are conditioned by history to expect more.

There are other factors contributing to supporter flight with these teams but I think this scenario is a factor. It's only a theory of mine though so feel free to disagree. I won't put up too much of a fight as it's only speculation on my part.

#55 Manx RL

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:38 PM

It applies to Oldham more than Hornets, but they have been a top team in the past and were in SL/1st Division at the start of SL and for some seasons before. The RL public of Oldham know this and are not prepared to come to support their team at CCl level. They have higher expectations of Oldham rugby and they have SL options very close by.

North Wales and South Wales and, with respect Gateshead and the expansion teams have had very little exposure to top flight rugby ( 1 season each). The supporters are happy just to have a team to support at all and will come in expectation of CC1 rugby being the best deal for them. That is not to say that they don't want success or promotion but it's not the culturally expected norm for those teams.

It's not that the heritage helps Oldham or Rochdale, in fact, just the opposite, it's the heritage and expectation that comes with it that deters their fans from supporting their team at CC1 level, they are conditioned by history to expect more.

There are other factors contributing to supporter flight with these teams but I think this scenario is a factor. It's only a theory of mine though so feel free to disagree. I won't put up too much of a fight as it's only speculation on my part.


These reports point to very strong contributing factors of 'supporter flight' for both Oldham and Rochdale. Source: CCSR
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#56 boro hornet

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:51 PM

These reports point to very strong contributing factors of 'supporter flight' for both Oldham and Rochdale. Source: CCSR


And also a reason why we have to engage with all sections of the community within our town,something that the clubs are taking upon themselves to do, but with out central funding find it very difficult to employ staff to do it.
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#57 bearman

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:02 PM

Having seen Coventry battered at Hudds Underbank at weekend, it's clear that, in terms of playing ability, they are way short of stepping up. Hemel, on the other hand, look far better placed to compete. Indeed, in reality, Hemel is the only proper club looking to 'step-up' - and, for me, that is the sort of provenance that any expansion club should have.

I don't think anyone at Coventry believes that the team that played on Saturday would stand a chance in C1.
I know that the Hemel coach is also aware of the massive jump in standards.
As far as the gap in standards between Hemel and Coventry goes, we lost by ten at their place but beat them by 30 at ours.
( I don't understand how Underbank ever lose on that pitch- but fair play to Hemel who have won there twice this year)
But, as stated above we are well aware of the massive difference in class. It will be a challenge.
On the issue of lack of games is it possible for Rochdale, Oldham and perhaps Crusaders to set up a 3 way tournament with a pot to aim for?
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#58 Marauder

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:07 PM

My concern with the new expansion clubs is where they will get the players of that level from. If it weren't for SL scrapping their U20s I don't think it would even be possible.

Lots of players at Championship and Championship 1 standard around the amateur game getting paid about the same but with less hassle.
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#59 bowes

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:21 PM

Lots of players at Championship and Championship 1 standard around the amateur game getting paid about the same but with less hassle.

I think it's more likely the younger players that still hope to make it at a higher level that would go to the new clubs. Then either settle at a pro club nearer to home or revert to the amateur game.

#60 Mumby Magic

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 07:00 AM

If done right I'm all for it. Are the clubs going to be given a hand for travelling expenses from the RFL? Gateshead to Hemel, Gloucester, Oxford and London on crowds of 2 to 300 will hit the pocket. I'd rather the SL parachute some monies down the leagues to help the whole game. How's about a Sky game for the first match of say Oxford VS Gloucester? Show the old Onion brigade there is more to our game than the M62




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