107 replies to this topic

[OMEGA]

Cas are "severely limited" by what?

As a "classy" brand the club don't "punch above their weight" quite the reverse,

They attract a weight of support that in relation to the size of the town indicates one in six Cas people support the club.

Which isn't the case at all. People travel from far and wide (relatively speaking) to see an exciting club/team.

AFAIK several people In Selby are Leeds fans several are Cas fans.

If we work on your assumptions then Everton should not exist?

You say "The likes of Salford have huge amounts of untapped potential".

They have had this potential for years, but they are not "tapping it".

The question for you is this.

If Salford and Castleford were grand finalists and Challenge cup finalists ever year for the next three years which club would have the highest attendances????

Because as it stands both clubs have no chance of any final appearance yet the small town produces bigger attendances than the big dual city...

Demographics, geography, local competition, commercial viability, profile, finance, facilities, investment, sponsorship .... I could go on.

Unless Castleford can find a local born multi millionaire who's prepared to invest on the Ken Davy scale and show the same level of patience then they're unlikely to ever reach let alone sustain being a top club. Of course they might manage to string some performances together that gets them to a semi final or the 2nd week of the play offs but it will be a flash in the pan rather than a sustained, year in year out challenge for honours. They may manage to homegrow some amazing young players who mature together and give them a strong team but, for all the reasons above, they don't have the wherewithal to keep them.

Every club attracts fans from a wider area but unless you're Man Utd it's likely to account for a small percentage of your overall attendance. The fact that they attract 1 in 6 of their population is both great and not great, it's a credit that they have such pull in their home Town but at the same time it suggests they've squeezed almost all they can realistically expect from Castleford. Without somehow becoming the Classy Cas of old or transforming themselves into annual contenders they're unlikely to overcome their limitations and draw the huge and significant numbers of supporters from outside the Town, it's a vicious circle that's become more vicious in modern top flight sport.

Let's not use Premier League clubs as a comparison because the forces and finances in play render it pointless they aren't even in the same Universe!

In my honest opinion if Salford were to do a Leeds and mount a ten year attack on Challenge Cup and Grand Finals then they'd attract more fans than Castleford and what's more they'd become immensely more attractive to new big money investors which would allow them to sustain their prominence.

[The Parksider]

Demographics, geography, local competition, commercial viability, profile, finance, facilities, investment, sponsorship .... I could go on.

Unless Castleford can find a local born multi millionaire who's prepared to invest on the Ken Davy scale and show the same level of patience then they're unlikely to ever reach let alone sustain being a top club. Of course they might manage to string some performances together that gets them to a semi final or the 2nd week of the play offs but it will be a flash in the pan rather than a sustained, year in year out challenge for honours. They may manage to homegrow some amazing young players who mature together and give them a strong team but, for all the reasons above, they don't have the wherewithal to keep them.

Every club attracts fans from a wider area but unless you're Man Utd it's likely to account for a small percentage of your overall attendance. The fact that they attract 1 in 6 of their population is both great and not great, it's a credit that they have such pull in their home Town but at the same time it suggests they've squeezed almost all they can realistically expect from Castleford. Without somehow becoming the Classy Cas of old or transforming themselves into annual contenders they're unlikely to overcome their limitations and draw the huge and significant numbers of supporters from outside the Town, it's a vicious circle that's become more vicious in modern top flight sport.

Let's not use Premier League clubs as a comparison because the forces and finances in play render it pointless they aren't even in the same Universe!

In my honest opinion if Salford were to do a Leeds and mount a ten year attack on Challenge Cup and Grand Finals then they'd attract more fans than Castleford and what's more they'd become immensely more attractive to new big money investors which would allow them to sustain their prominence.

Very very interesting, thanks for rising to the challenge.

[keighley]

Demographics, geography, local competition, commercial viability, profile, finance, facilities, investment, sponsorship .... I could go on.

Unless Castleford can find a local born multi millionaire who's prepared to invest on the Ken Davy scale and show the same level of patience then they're unlikely to ever reach let alone sustain being a top club. Of course they might manage to string some performances together that gets them to a semi final or the 2nd week of the play offs but it will be a flash in the pan rather than a sustained, year in year out challenge for honours. They may manage to homegrow some amazing young players who mature together and give them a strong team but, for all the reasons above, they don't have the wherewithal to keep them.

Every club attracts fans from a wider area but unless you're Man Utd it's likely to account for a small percentage of your overall attendance. The fact that they attract 1 in 6 of their population is both great and not great, it's a credit that they have such pull in their home Town but at the same time it suggests they've squeezed almost all they can realistically expect from Castleford. Without somehow becoming the Classy Cas of old or transforming themselves into annual contenders they're unlikely to overcome their limitations and draw the huge and significant numbers of supporters from outside the Town, it's a vicious circle that's become more vicious in modern top flight sport.

Let's not use Premier League clubs as a comparison because the forces and finances in play render it pointless they aren't even in the same Universe!

In my honest opinion if Salford were to do a Leeds and mount a ten year attack on Challenge Cup and Grand Finals then they'd attract more fans than Castleford and what's more they'd become immensely more attractive to new big money investors which would allow them to sustain their prominence.

Paragraph two is the key. Like all but one or two of SL Castleford need an outside investor. As to their catchment area, I will leave that to their supporters in the know, suffice it for me to say that the areas to the South, I believe without the benefit of a map, the outlying villages and even as far as Selby can be considered part of their catchment area, not just the town of Castleford itself. All the other points you mention, facilities, sponsorship will follow on from the finances being right. To be fair, I think they have the profile. Any club being in SL automatically gets profile and Cas were in the public eye long before that due to Challenge Cup and Regal trophy wins on national TV.

No one is giving Widnes as an example but they are a small town, hemmed in by other SL clubs, but who, due to the fact that they have a large investor in tow are in SL and will likely make a sucess of it. I see very little difference between them and Castleford if and its a big IF, Castleford get financial input from a well heeled source.

In fact Catalans are another, what is the population of Perpignan, not very much and they have huge competiton from RU there.

[DeadShotKeen]

The word "villages" should not be being mooted in defence of any SL side as I see it. Think small, get small.

Parky - You're astonishingly hypocritical here. You're gung ho for a Hull merger on the grounds of 20K fans making them a force but Wakey, Cas and Fev can continue to battle over the same turf and good luck to them? I'm not sure why you're so much kinder towards the West Yorks sides when all the current evidence points to Hull having a better claim to 2 competitive sides than that part of West Yorks but I think it's time you let us know. Local bias?

keighley - Re: Cas being our Buffalo/Green Bay, it's a fair point but I'm not so sure. For Green Bay see my earlier comment about their catchment area. Buffalo have always intrigued me a bit as you'd think they'd always be the poor relation to the 2 NY sides but I guess the support base is there? Although I do know that they've long been linked with a move to Toronto but the NFL as with all the North American leagues have backed all attempts to keep them in Buffalo and make it work there if possible. What I do know is that the NFL (again, like all the North American leagues) will not be afraid to act in the best interests of the league and move the side should it be the only way to make them a competitive and sustainable entity (and thus protect the credibility and marketability of NFL) and this really is the crux of my point - that no team or teams are bigger than the league they represent and you keep bailing out little sides in the name of tradition and out of fear of ruffling a few feathers at your own peril.

Edited by DeadShotKeen, 14 October 2012 - 11:20 AM.

[keighley]

The word "villages" should not be being mooted in defence of any SL side as I see it. Think small, get small.

Parky - You're astonishingly hypocritical here. You're gung ho for a Hull merger on the grounds of 20K fans making them a force but Wakey, Cas and Fev can continue to battle over the same turf and good luck to them? I'm not sure why you're so much kinder towards the West Yorks sides when all the current evidence points to Hull having a better claim to 2 competitive sides than that part of West Yorks but I think it's time you let us know. Local bias?

keighley - Re: Cas being our Buffalo/Green Bay, it's a fair point but I'm not so sure. For Green Bay see my earlier comment about their catchment area. Buffalo have always intrigued me a bit as you'd think they'd always be the poor relation to the 2 NY sides but I guess the support base is there? Although I do know that they've long been linked with a move to Toronto but the NFL as with all the North American leagues have backed all attempts to keep them in Buffalo and make it work there if possible. What I do know is that the NFL (again, like all the North American leagues) will not be afraid to act in the best interests of the league and move the side should it be the only way to make them a competitive and sustainable entity (and thus protect the credibility and marketability of NFL) and this really is the crux of my point - that no team or teams are bigger than the league they represent and you keep bailing out little sides in the name of tradition and out of fear of ruffling a few feathers at your own peril.

DeadShot Keen. When Castleford entered the league in the 1920s, it would be fair to say that their support base was from the town of Castleford. Money was scarce, cars were scarcer and the fans walked to the games.

Today, even given this recesssion, money is much more available for lesiure pursuits, cars are ten a penny and most families have one and the small towns and yes villages have become commuter homes for the more well heeled supporter of Castleford and potential supporters. It makes every sense to include these areas in your fan base, not only for the numbers but you are much more likely to find rich, potential investors there than in the poorer areas of Castleford town. To return to the North American analogy,( I hope we are not boring people with it), but the hugely successful Boston Red Sox pull their support not only from Boston but from every town and village in Western Massachusetts and even from the recesses of Maine, Vermont and New Hampshire. You only have to go to a game at Fenway Park to see the busloads after busloads of supporters arriving from these areas. Now that's marketing. It's anything but small to grow your catchment areas in this way and Castleford should exploit this wider area to the max.

To digress to Buffalo. It's a dying city. It's losing population at a great rate. Toronto is just the opposite. Buffalo already play half their home games at the Rogers arena. I think they will move there unless the Canadian RL teams move in and block them . The situation is a little similar to the Broncos taking games to other parts of London. It might end up in their moving if it proves very successful.

The NFL are in the envious position of having many huge cities in both the US and Canada who would love to join their league. RL is not so fortunate.That's why Sheffield are a potential SL member. They are from a big city. We don't have so many of those interested in RL. I don't think though that the NFL will move teams. It's up to the owners of the various struggling franchises to do that. If it was up to the NFL there would be a team in Los Angeles.

I don't think the RFL are bailing out little sides. Are they giving funds to Castleford specifically for that purpose. On the other hand, RL is not so big as to be jettisoning clubs just because they are small. Our whole league is based on small towns and cities. We need them.

The point with the NFL is that they just expand. They add new teams. They don't remove anyone. They just add extra conferences. Long term that should be the aim of the RFL. I know, money,money, money but that should be the aim of the game, not killing teams but adding new ones and increasing the numbers both numerically and geographically in equal measure. I think Australia is slowly moving to that model also, but, of course, they have the money..

[The Parksider]

Parky - You're astonishingly hypocritical here. You're gung ho for a Hull merger on the grounds of 20K fans making them a force but Wakey, Cas and Fev can continue to battle over the same turf and good luck to them? I'm not sure why you're so much kinder towards the West Yorks sides when all the current evidence points to Hull having a better claim to 2 competitive sides than that part of West Yorks but I think it's time you let us know. Local bias?

Read the actual posts.

I did page after page on the situation where HKR part collapsed financially and Hull moved in for their best players.

I never actually promoted a merger for Hull/HKR gave that up years ago. The 20K reference was about Hull attracting levels approaching that in time to come if they can just get rid of their neighbour.

Just made the point that the SL clubs will make themselves stronger at the expense of near neighbours......

Edited by The Parksider, 14 October 2012 - 07:49 PM.

[exiled rover]

Absolutely no idea about the situation regarding a completely different game in the US & whether there is a parallel here in darkest West Yorkshire.

What I do know is that I'm a Featherstone Rovers fan whose allegiance is to the club & not the sport.
If Fev ceased to exist or became subsumed into another club I would walk away from the game entirely.
I understand that my passion for the club is tribal & others may see that as small minded or even "selfish" but quite frankly I don't care.

I suspect that rather than the supporters of Fev, Cas & Wakefield joining together to create a super club, many would like me quietly melt away.

The argument regarding a cash backer vs size of catchment area would give Fev just as much opportunity as either Cas or Wakefield. I think if I were a supporter of either of the other two local teams I wouldn't be complacent about continuing in Super League & would be rather worried about the most progressive team in the locality taking their place.

Roll on the Fevolution!

[DeadShotKeen]

Absolutely no idea about the situation regarding a completely different game in the US & whether there is a parallel here in darkest West Yorkshire.

Ignorance is bliss, eh?