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Eagles for SL


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#261 Padge

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 05:45 PM

There is only one way into SL at the end of the day and that is by having enough money, supporters can have all the fanciful dreams in the world but if their aren't enough of them to finance an SL club then the club will have to rely on one supporter who does.

The city of Sheffield has never shown a great appetite for the game, even when the club was doing well, however that doesn't mean that city may always shun an RL team there. However the problem the club has is it will not for the foreseeable future pull in enough supporters to sustain a viable SL club and there is nobody on a white charger riding up the M1 to take them forward. The best Sheffield can hope for is slow steady growth, building up a stable, loyal fan base, that is far more important to the club than chasing a disastrous SL dream, they just at the moment do not have anywhere near enough core support without a massive financial backer to fund a term in SL.

There has been no mergers by stealth, and no attempts to merge clubs by stealth. Once clubs voted against mergers in 95 the gloves where off. If a club representing an area couldn't become a bigger representative for the area by merging local rivals then it was up to those local rivals to fight for all the available support. RL operated for years with clubs operating a closed shop by area. It was unheard of to tap into a rivals support base, all well and good when you are the only entertainment in town. However as the world changed, with people have many more entertainment options, then on top of that the advent of multichannel TV, something had to give.

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#262 The Parksider

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:17 AM

I didn't turn a blind eye when players move the other way either.


Your not just myopic your as blind as a bat.

Let's try again. When Hull had all the money they dominated and HKR sank.

Only money reversed that process - £££millions.

THEN some players went the other way. Hall had struggled with his defence and Cooke had discipline problems but they went back to their beloved Rovers because the money was there.

All over "up t'north" fans leave places like York, Oldham, Batley, Keighley, Hunslet, Barrow, Bramley, Leigh, Halifax (cue "I don't know a single fan in Halifax that goes to SL games") to go watch Superleague. Compare and contrast the crowds SL.v.CC.

Championship club towns have spawned over 30 fully professional RL players currently playing the game. None of them actually play for their local clubs.

In the absence of enough money to be able not just to be in Superleague but to compete in it, the big clubs take players and fans away from the little ones (and so as Hudge runs out of money the top players run out). Eventually the process is complete when the big club enters into an arrangement with the little club who then becomes the "A" team and thus the takeover is complete. First merger by stealth (a poor metaphor as Padge notes, and I admit for one club draining it's neighbours of resources) is in my city. Sadly the third club in my city that didn't merge is set to disappear.

This is what happens to a game with too many clubs and not enough fans and players.

This is why CC clubs can start Academies and SL clubs will say we'll have him and him.

This is why clubs don't co-exist they compete, there's no "symbiotic" relationship.

This is why you can't build an SL club if your neighbour is knocking it down

Need the address of a good optician?

Edited by The Parksider, 13 October 2012 - 06:27 AM.


#263 The Parksider

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:32 AM

The best Sheffield can hope for is slow steady growth, building up a stable, loyal fan base, that is far more important to the club than chasing a disastrous SL dream.


You forgot "and having fun at the same time chasing more trophies"..........

#264 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 07:47 AM

Your not just myopic your as blind as a bat.

Let's try again. When Hull had all the money they dominated and HKR sank.

Only money reversed that process - £££millions.

THEN some players went the other way. Hall had struggled with his defence and Cooke had discipline problems but they went back to their beloved Rovers because the money was there.

All over "up t'north" fans leave places like York, Oldham, Batley, Keighley, Hunslet, Barrow, Bramley, Leigh, Halifax (cue "I don't know a single fan in Halifax that goes to SL games") to go watch Superleague. Compare and contrast the crowds SL.v.CC.

Championship club towns have spawned over 30 fully professional RL players currently playing the game. None of them actually play for their local clubs.

In the absence of enough money to be able not just to be in Superleague but to compete in it, the big clubs take players and fans away from the little ones (and so as Hudge runs out of money the top players run out). Eventually the process is complete when the big club enters into an arrangement with the little club who then becomes the "A" team and thus the takeover is complete. First merger by stealth (a poor metaphor as Padge notes, and I admit for one club draining it's neighbours of resources) is in my city. Sadly the third club in my city that didn't merge is set to disappear.

This is what happens to a game with too many clubs and not enough fans and players.

This is why CC clubs can start Academies and SL clubs will say we'll have him and him.

This is why clubs don't co-exist they compete, there's no "symbiotic" relationship.

This is why you can't build an SL club if your neighbour is knocking it down

Need the address of a good optician?


The thing you miss is that Hull KR are still in SL and may well win another licence in 2015. Comparing them to Bramley is ludicrous. Some players move clubs and generally from small clubs to big clubs, this is not something unique to Hull. The other week a promising winger moved from Broncos to KR, should I conclude that Broncos should "merge" with KR?

Edited by Northern Sol, 13 October 2012 - 07:50 AM.


#265 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 07:54 AM

I've learned something new today already. Parky told me that Hudgell was an enlightened individual with an inside track on the thinking of the RFL and now I find out out that he has been flogging a dead horse to death all this time.

#266 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:53 AM

You therefore totally failed to see HKR's steady demise to the point of 1,000 fans attending a Chorley game and all the best kids in Hull packed into Hull FC and FC's Challenge Cup victory and Superleague appearance at Old Trafford.

Yes, all the best kids in Hull. Who were they...?
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#267 The Parksider

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:55 AM

The thing you miss is that Hull KR are still in SL and may well win another licence in 2015. Comparing them to Bramley is ludicrous. Some players move clubs and generally from small clubs to big clubs, this is not something unique to Hull. The other week a promising winger moved from Broncos to KR, should I conclude that Broncos should "merge" with KR?



HKR may yet survive SL. They'll need money, I think you know that.

I saw Bramley win a trophy beating the games top clubs to get to it.

Your final example is fair enough, but your premise that that prompts a merger is just ludicrous.

Why not pop up here and watch as Leeds particularly target the best kids in their neighbours area and target the people living there to buy season tickets.

The penny may then drop,

#268 The Parksider

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:59 AM

I've learned something new today already. Parky told me that Hudgell was an enlightened individual with an inside track on the thinking of the RFL and now I find out out that he has been flogging a dead horse to death all this time.


Hudgell is a smart man and an excellent businessman.

He is an entrepreuner and a fan and understandably tried to revive HKR's fortunes calculating it could be done with a few million pounds.

His plans for HKR have hit a major setback, but they aren't down yet

So I dunno why you made that daft statement above.

If your just trying to score a point of me, then let's now agree to disagree as in not doing so people can become quite nasty (albeit you never are).

You can have the last say :)

Edited by The Parksider, 13 October 2012 - 10:01 AM.


#269 Griff

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:01 AM

You forgot "and having fun at the same time chasing more trophies"..........


That's true.

Mind you, it's not so long ago that Sheffield scraped into Div 2 through the play-off and were written off as relegation favourites the following season. Since then, they've missed the cut for the play-offs once.

Historically, they've generally over-achieved. Finished in the top half of the Div1/$uperleague table more often than not and - spookily - never lost in the Premiership to anyone except Wigan. :huh:
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#270 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:41 AM

The thing you miss is that Hull KR are still in SL and may well win another licence in 2015. Comparing them to Bramley is ludicrous. Some players move clubs and generally from small clubs to big clubs, this is not something unique to Hull. The other week a promising winger moved from Broncos to KR, should I conclude that Broncos should "merge" with KR?

If the old Hull KR thread is anything to go by, Parky's views on both Hull clubs are complete rubbish, based on illogical opinion and underlying motives. His facts just don't stack up, no matter how many contradicting stats he puts up (some just completely incorrect anyway), and when challenged, instead of answering them he just has a little moan about something that upsets him then repeats the same line of logic!

Most of the tricks in the book to try and get people to come to his way of thinking: strawmannery, diversion tactics, playing the victim, causation, changing the facts, false premise, hear say, vagueness, playing on fantasies, scapegoating, rejecting facts/logic as opinion, hyperbole. If he was that confident in his argument, he'd use a more honest approach.

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#271 keighley

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:03 AM

I think all agree that Sheffield are not ready for SL at this time. However, how some SL diehards on here can write them off as never being capable of entering and competing in SL, seems perverse to me

Many are the arguments and postings on here about the impossibility of small towns such as Keighley, Featherstone Leigh and the cumbrian clubs being able to generate attendances large enough for SL due to not ever having a large enough catchment area or population to achieve this.

There have been threads about the need for RL to have SL clubs in large cities. The thought of not having one in Bradford, a small sized city, brought about predictions of SL collapse The current lovefest with Wakefield engaged in by some posters because they are a City club reinforces that point..

Yet, here is a club in a large City, who are set to tick all the boxes, even if they are not ready yet, with a previous history of being able to attract at least 3,000 average crowds and they are being written off as never being able to be a SL licence holder.

Given that some of our top teams are from small places, Wigan, St Helens, Perpignan and Huddersfield, I find this attitude just a little bit hypocritical.

Sheffield should be just as high on the SL agenda for a future licence as Toulouse. Their attendances when playing in the CC were no better than Shefffield's and the cost of travelling there dosn't help the other SL clubs budgets much. I am not saying I am against Toulouse, merely that it would be nice if Sheffield were given the same enthusiastic support for their ambitions as are Touluse. They desrve it equally as much.

#272 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 12:27 PM

I think all agree that Sheffield are not ready for SL at this time. However, how some SL diehards on here can write them off as never being capable of entering and competing in SL, seems perverse to me

Many are the arguments and postings on here about the impossibility of small towns such as Keighley, Featherstone Leigh and the cumbrian clubs being able to generate attendances large enough for SL due to not ever having a large enough catchment area or population to achieve this.

There have been threads about the need for RL to have SL clubs in large cities. The thought of not having one in Bradford, a small sized city, brought about predictions of SL collapse The current lovefest with Wakefield engaged in by some posters because they are a City club reinforces that point..

Yet, here is a club in a large City, who are set to tick all the boxes, even if they are not ready yet, with a previous history of being able to attract at least 3,000 average crowds and they are being written off as never being able to be a SL licence holder.

Given that some of our top teams are from small places, Wigan, St Helens, Perpignan and Huddersfield, I find this attitude just a little bit hypocritical.

Sheffield should be just as high on the SL agenda for a future licence as Toulouse. Their attendances when playing in the CC were no better than Shefffield's and the cost of travelling there dosn't help the other SL clubs budgets much. I am not saying I am against Toulouse, merely that it would be nice if Sheffield were given the same enthusiastic support for their ambitions as are Touluse. They desrve it equally as much.

Totally agree. Expansion into Sheffield would be a very big step for the game. A HUGE city, central to the country, great facilities, huge expansion area in the Midlands on their doorstep. Being on the edge of the heartlands as well means they have access to tons of players and away support so they won't have to start standing still.

Are they ready now? No.
Will they be ready in two years? Possibly.
Will they be ready in five years? Hopefully!

SL needs big clubs in big places at big venues with big fan bases. Sheffield has the potential that others don't in that league.
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#273 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:02 PM

HKR may yet survive SL. They'll need money, I think you know that.

I saw Bramley win a trophy beating the games top clubs to get to it.

Your final example is fair enough, but your premise that that prompts a merger is just ludicrous.

Why not pop up here and watch as Leeds particularly target the best kids in their neighbours area and target the people living there to buy season tickets.

The penny may then drop,


Neither Hunslet or Bramley are in any way able to compete with Leeds financially. Hull KR aren't that far behind FC.

#274 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:03 PM

Totally agree. Expansion into Sheffield would be a very big step for the game. A HUGE city, central to the country, great facilities, huge expansion area in the Midlands on their doorstep. Being on the edge of the heartlands as well means they have access to tons of players and away support so they won't have to start standing still.

Are they ready now? No.
Will they be ready in two years? Possibly.
Will they be ready in five years? Hopefully!

SL needs big clubs in big places at big venues with big fan bases. Sheffield has the potential that others don't in that league.


Indeed. SL needs Sheffield (when they are ready).

#275 The Parksider

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:31 PM

Neither Hunslet or Bramley are in any way able to compete with Leeds financially. Hull KR aren't that far behind FC.


Just look at the record and work on fact not fantasy.

If you can spend Full salary cap (like Hull can) you are in for any of the top players, with an even shout.

If you are unable to spend full cap and your spending is limited you do not have a chance of the top players because you are not just behind HullFC (if you are HKR) but behind a very long queue of bigger spenders.

Give it up solly.

The market is such that there are more clubs chasing top players than there are top players. If HKR are behind say ten clubs they won't get a sniff of any top player.

Quite the reverse.

Indeed if you are short of money in the auction, you can come away with nothing of any note. Somewhere someone outbids you for the top players.

Just accept the facts Solly. Once Hudge did not want to compete with other SL clubs Wigan and HullFC moved in to take the best they had.

If Omari Caro was that good then there's be half a dozen SL clubs who would have nipped in before Rovers......

#276 The Parksider

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:47 PM

Indeed. SL needs Sheffield (when they are ready).


I'm deeply sorry you have been set up to spout such nonsense as "SL needs Sheffield"

Sheffield is a big city that doesn't have any great desire to follow Rugby League, the sporting kids there have no great desire to play RL. Even a Challenge Cup win for Eagles saw crowds (well "attendances") drop alarmingly.

The city is heavily into Soccer. It doesn't matter if the clubs are not premiership clubs they are still massive compared to tiny Eagles.

If Superleague needs Sheffield, then it needs Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow, Edingburgh, Cardiff, Nottingham, Derby etc. as well.

But you have let yourself be suckered into sloganising.

Next time someone agrees with you, don't get all excited, try to think first...........

#277 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:49 PM

I'm deeply sorry you have been set up to spout such nonsense as "SL needs Sheffield"

Sheffield is a big city that doesn't have any great desire to follow Rugby League, the sporting kids there have no great desire to play RL. Even a Challenge Cup win for Eagles saw crowds (well "attendances") drop alarmingly.

The city is heavily into Soccer. It doesn't matter if the clubs are not premiership clubs they are still massive compared to tiny Eagles.

If Superleague needs Sheffield, then it needs Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow, Edingburgh, Cardiff, Nottingham, Derby etc. as well.

But you have let yourself be suckered into sloganising.

Next time someone agrees with you, don't get all excited, try to think first...........


RL does need those cities but they (aside from Gateshead) don't have RL teams.

All the objections you have to Sheffield are true of London.

#278 MidlandsRugbyLeague

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:53 PM

RL does need those cities but they (aside from Gateshead) don't have RL teams.

All the objections you have to Sheffield are true of London.


Er, yes they do.... some more than one!!

#279 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:54 PM

Just look at the record and work on fact not fantasy.

If you can spend Full salary cap (like Hull can) you are in for any of the top players, with an even shout.

If you are unable to spend full cap and your spending is limited you do not have a chance of the top players because you are not just behind HullFC (if you are HKR) but behind a very long queue of bigger spenders.

Give it up solly.

The market is such that there are more clubs chasing top players than there are top players. If HKR are behind say ten clubs they won't get a sniff of any top player.

Quite the reverse.

Indeed if you are short of money in the auction, you can come away with nothing of any note. Somewhere someone outbids you for the top players.

Just accept the facts Solly. Once Hudge did not want to compete with other SL clubs Wigan and HullFC moved in to take the best they had.

If Omari Caro was that good then there's be half a dozen SL clubs who would have nipped in before Rovers......


The thing is that you now argue that Wigan also outbid Hull KR for their players. In which case the geography has nothing to do with it.

#280 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:54 PM

Er, yes they do.... some more than one!!


Not pro sides.




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