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Eagles for SL


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#361 Griff

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 02:21 PM

I would change your "if sheffield have no money" i dont think its important to "have money" per ce.. as long as they dont lose money they could do it on a shoe string and still add to the comp to be honest....


How ? ? :blink: Would we need to strengthen the team ? Would our current staff be prepared to stay part time ? If not, they'd want a pay rise just to pay the bills
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#362 RP London

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 02:48 PM

How ? ? :blink: Would we need to strengthen the team ? Would our current staff be prepared to stay part time ? If not, they'd want a pay rise just to pay the bills


I dont know!! i am not the accountant nor am i the CEO of Sheffield Eagles.. i dont know what the revenue stream is nor do i know the outgoings of Sheffield Eagles at the moment. If i did then i may be able to answer that.. but as a general rule you keep within your income how they do that is up to them and how they manage their resources..

even just at a glance you can see that revenue would rise because of the grant from the RFL without anything else and as such they will be able to pay more to the staff.. so there will be rises in income so you can raise your expenditure..

without the books though i cannot answer how they will do it... but a 200+ page proposal to the RFL will outline it as muich as they can for the RFL to look at it and make a judgment from.. how i am supposed to summarise it in a forum post without the knoweldge i dont know.

#363 keighley

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:06 PM

Sheffield didn't have much money throughout the Labour "boom years" either when they averaged 4,000 fans in Superleague, and eventually went bust.

To effectively argue once the country comes out of recession this will enable Sheffield to afford to compete in Superleague is a bit desperate.


They were merged with with Huddersfield to help both clubs, pricipally Huddersfield as it turned out due to the 1,000,000 pound bonus on offer to clubs who merged.

The point is that, when the country comes out of recession, there will be more money available on all fronts, the fans pockets, the entrepreneur investors pockets, the sponsors pockets. This can only be good for Sheffield Eagles in their efforts to improve their club in all areas. If you don't think so, well that's your view, it's not mine. A rising tide lifts all ships including, I would suspect the good ship, Sheffield Eagles. i didn'y say that the end of the recession by itself will help the Eagles to be ready for SL but it will certainly help them to improve their fiinancial position due to the availability of more cash in the economy.

The fact that the previous incarnation of the Eagles had difficulties but the present club are not only surviving but successfully so says to me that this Administration is more successful and competent than the last one and the end result of their efforts here might be different.

#364 Griff

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:06 PM

I dont know!! i am not the accountant nor am i the CEO of Sheffield Eagles.. i dont know what the revenue stream is nor do i know the outgoings of Sheffield Eagles at the moment. If i did then i may be able to answer that.. but as a general rule you keep within your income how they do that is up to them and how they manage their resources..

even just at a glance you can see that revenue would rise because of the grant from the RFL without anything else and as such they will be able to pay more to the staff.. so there will be rises in income so you can raise your expenditure..

without the books though i cannot answer how they will do it... but a 200+ page proposal to the RFL will outline it as muich as they can for the RFL to look at it and make a judgment from.. how i am supposed to summarise it in a forum post without the knoweldge i dont know.


I see. Just idle speculation then.
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#365 Griff

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:10 PM

They were merged with with Huddersfield to help both clubs, pricipally Huddersfield as it turned out due to the 1,000,000 pound bonus on offer to clubs who merged.

The point is that, when the country comes out of recession, there will be more money available on all fronts, the fans pockets, the entrepreneur investors pockets, the sponsors pockets. This can only be good for Sheffield Eagles in their efforts to improve their club in all areas. If you don't think so, well that's your view, it's not mine. A rising tide lifts all ships including, I would suspect the good ship, Sheffield Eagles. i didn'y say that the end of the recession by itself will help the Eagles to be ready for SL but it will certainly help them to improve their fiinancial position due to the availability of more cash in the economy.

The fact that the previous incarnation of the Eagles had difficulties but the present club are not only surviving but successfully so says to me that this Administration is more successful and competent than the last one and the end result of their efforts here might be different.


The previous incarnation is still trading - as Huddersfield Giants, of course. Let's not do the pre-1999 entity down too much, pal.

Anyway - so why will the next "boom" be different from previous "booms" ?
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#366 keighley

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:13 PM

Different clubs will take different approaches, that's a given. For me there is only one approach, you build a strong club (business) and from that you build a team. The recent traditional approach is to build a team and hope some business follows to pay for it.

A lot of early rugby clubs were formed from successful businesses forming sporting clubs, not from sporting clubs trying to become successful businesses.


Don't you think that's exactly what Sheffield are doing?

#367 The Parksider

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:16 PM

I wouldnt agree that just Super League clubs stimulate the junior game.. i think ALL clubs help stimulate the game.


Well over 100 first XV11 SL players are from SL towns and less than 40 are from Championship towns.

What's your point? Mine is that you need SL clubs where you are most likely to find quality young rugby players.

Edited by The Parksider, 17 October 2012 - 03:17 PM.


#368 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:20 PM

Was it not Ralph Rimmer who helped greatly in the demise of Sheffield Eagles Mk 1? He moved things to Huddersfield and left Sheffield with nothing. Think he was involved.

#369 The Parksider

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:22 PM

I would change your "if sheffield have no money" i dont think its important to "have money" per ce.. as long as they dont lose money they could do it on a shoe string and still add to the comp to be honest..


In 2003 Halifax did it on a shoestring. I suggest you have a look at what they did.

In 2005 Leigh did it on a shoestring. I suggest you have a look at what they did.

Not sure of your point - what exactly is it Sheffield can add to the competition on a shoestring budget?

It won't be fans, nobody wants to watch a losing team or cricket scores. It won't therefore be money and it won't be an expansion of the professional RL playing pool - well maybe the odd quality player who will be off to a bigger club??

#370 Griff

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:22 PM

Well over 100 first XV11 SL players are from SL towns and less than 40 are from Championship towns.

What's your point? Mine is that you need SL clubs where you are most likely to find quality young rugby players.


Hold on - did you not imply somewhere earlier on this vast thread that kids wanted to be SL players because there was a SL club there ? :blink:
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#371 RP London

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:23 PM

I see. Just idle speculation then.


no not at all... its quite obvious that you can run a team/club on income without a huge influx of money and without making a loss (they are doing it at the moment) there is no reason why they cannot then take this up to the next level...

you asked me for how this can happen which i cannot say.. what i can tell you s that if you dont spend all your income on expenditure then you wont lose money.. i pointed out they will get more money from sky than they do at the moment.. its not idle speculation its obvious that it can be done..

With your specific questions.. i dont know if we need to strenghten the team.. it probably wouldnt hurt but would we be able to mix it with the rest, debatable.. would it cost the earth to do this or would this be covered by the Sky money.. well that depends on the managment and how good they are at negotiating contracts and getting the right standard of player for the right price.. Back room staff, i expect most will want to go full time, i expect we could afford it with the sky money but it depends on the player budget, it also depends on what other income is brought in by going up to Super League..

I cannot tell you what the balance sheet looks like so for indepth "how would they do it" i cannot tell you, but i can give you the basics of how it can work.. and it can.. you jsut spend less than you earn..

it wasnt even sepcualtion its basic business management and it can be done. the idea you MUST have huge amounts of money is not true, maybe to win super league but to compete i dont think you do.

#372 Griff

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:25 PM

Was it not Ralph Rimmer who helped greatly in the demise of Sheffield Eagles Mk 1? He moved things to Huddersfield and left Sheffield with nothing. Think he was involved.


Arrant nonsense. He didn't "help in the demise" and it certainly wasn't his decision to "move things to Huddersfield".

Maybe Ken Davy had something to do with that decision. Being the owner, like. ^_^
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#373 The Parksider

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:27 PM

just at a glance you can see that revenue would rise because of the grant from the RFL without anything else and as such they will be able to pay more to the staff.. so there will be rises in income so you can raise your expenditure..


I think Sheffield will turn over something approaching £1M that's what you have to turn over to get in Superleague.

I think Les Catalans are budgeting to turn over £5.6M I think we are looking at SL turnovers of over £4M.

Add Sheffields £1M to the SLY money of £1.2M and you can see how massively far behind the Eagles will be.

So that may help???

#374 Griff

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:28 PM

no not at all... its quite obvious that you can run a team/club on income without a huge influx of money and without making a loss (they are doing it at the moment) there is no reason why they cannot then take this up to the next level...

you asked me for how this can happen which i cannot say.. what i can tell you s that if you dont spend all your income on expenditure then you wont lose money.. i pointed out they will get more money from sky than they do at the moment.. its not idle speculation its obvious that it can be done..

With your specific questions.. i dont know if we need to strenghten the team.. it probably wouldnt hurt but would we be able to mix it with the rest, debatable.. would it cost the earth to do this or would this be covered by the Sky money.. well that depends on the managment and how good they are at negotiating contracts and getting the right standard of player for the right price.. Back room staff, i expect most will want to go full time, i expect we could afford it with the sky money but it depends on the player budget, it also depends on what other income is brought in by going up to Super League..

I cannot tell you what the balance sheet looks like so for indepth "how would they do it" i cannot tell you, but i can give you the basics of how it can work.. and it can.. you jsut spend less than you earn..

it wasnt even sepcualtion its basic business management and it can be done. the idea you MUST have huge amounts of money is not true, maybe to win super league but to compete i dont think you do.


I can see we need you in club administration.

You don't know what the balance sheet looks like. Well, it's available at Companies House for a quid, along with the profit and loss account. Profit of just under £10000 for the year. Six figure excess of liabilities over assets.

They've stopped digging the hole but it's not being back-filled all that quickly.
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#375 keighley

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:29 PM

He also said the salary cap was too high (an extremely interesting comment).

He also conceded that if the cap was lowered the big clubs should be given dispensation to pay for the game's marquee players.

But regardless of his mooted changes for the salary cap system Andrew Glover got 8,000 fans into Belle Vue and I'd guess he'll project more at Newmarket.

It may well be the case "a well run club can indeed hack it in SL without a sugar daddy" and the RFL have given Mr. Khan a chance to also prove that, but part of "well run" includes 10,000 crowds.

Not 1,600 or 2,000 or even 4,500. So again let's all face the reality.


So London, Wakefield, Hull KR, Widnes, Catalans, Salford, Huddersfield, Castleford, that's 50% of your lauded SL, are not well run, according to your post. We had better radically restructure the whole game and have a 7 team SL averaging over 10,000 fans and eject the rest. You might have only 6 if the Bulls fans don't turn up to see a weak team on expensive season tickets.

#376 The Parksider

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:30 PM

Hold on - did you not imply somewhere earlier on this vast thread that kids wanted to be SL players because there was a SL club there ? :blink:


Imply? Clearly when Wigan went on their winning run they had loads of kids playing and the same happens in Leeds. Go to similar sized places where the RL club is not doing much and you don't see that many kids playing? Of course kids look at SL on telly and of course kids are attracted to play it at school and want to be signed on by their local pro club.

Why are we having a series on denial posts on some pretty simple principles???

#377 Padge

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:33 PM

Don't you think that's exactly what Sheffield are doing?

Have I said they are not, where my view differs from yours is that I don't see Sheffield being fit for SL within the next ten years at minimum, unless the saviour comes along the M1 on his white charger.

The reality is that Sheffield are a very long way from being fit for SL, they are not alone, there are a few other Championship clubs who are way off being in a position to be a realistic SL club but spout about it (cue the reply "yeah and some SL clubs blah blah blah").

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#378 RP London

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:33 PM

In 2003 Halifax did it on a shoestring. I suggest you have a look at what they did.

In 2005 Leigh did it on a shoestring. I suggest you have a look at what they did.

Not sure of your point - what exactly is it Sheffield can add to the competition on a shoestring budget?

It won't be fans, nobody wants to watch a losing team or cricket scores. It won't therefore be money and it won't be an expansion of the professional RL playing pool - well maybe the odd quality player who will be off to a bigger club??


just becuase they couldnt do it doesnt mean it cannot be done.

Sheffield can add quite a lot to a competition.. dependent on where they play it could add one of hte best grounds to the comp, it could add a great city to the RL fold, it could easily be an expansoin of the Pro RL playing pool as i have outlined before, more so than teams in the Hearltands.. although you seem happy with them expanding their net so in that case no one expands the pro RL playing pool! whats wrong if they ###### off to a bigger club, that happens you cant base your entire plan on where the players end up.. i am sure there are a few good quality players who have moved from good quality clubs to other good clubs in the past..

who is to say that they wont bring money into the league.. maybe not straight off but after a couple of seasons they may build up enough following to catch a couple of people with some cash that they bring in.. to say that they won't is as bad as me saying they will.. pure sepculation but in a city like Sheffield there is more chance than in many others that can bid for the next liscence.

who said the team will lose, have you never seen a good team that isnt full off superstars... there are plenty of great teams that arent full of great players but that are a team.. arguably sheffield eagles can prove their own point in 1998 at Wembley..

The eagles can add a fair bit, same/better as other teams that will be vying for the place.. to say that they cannot add anything i belive is missing a huge amount, but then that seems to be the defacto position on anything eagles based.

As i say i dont think they are ready now.. but i the future i think sheffield have a lot they can add and to write them off now i think is bizarre., and quite sad..

#379 The Parksider

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:33 PM

error!

Edited by The Parksider, 17 October 2012 - 03:34 PM.


#380 keighley

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:37 PM

I think Sheffield will turn over something approaching £1M that's what you have to turn over to get in Superleague.

I think Les Catalans are budgeting to turn over £5.6M I think we are looking at SL turnovers of over £4M.

Add Sheffields £1M to the SLY money of £1.2M and you can see how massively far behind the Eagles will be.

So that may help???


Do you think a Sheffield SL club will have the travelling expenses of Toulouse ? Maybe they need a bigger budget having to travel to the UK every second week.




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