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Eagles for SL


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#381 The Parksider

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:37 PM

just becuase they couldnt do it doesnt mean it cannot be done.

Sheffield can add quite a lot to a competition.. dependent on where they play it could add one of hte best grounds to the comp, it could add a great city to the RL fold, it could easily be an expansoin of the Pro RL playing pool as i have outlined before, more so than teams in the Hearltands.. although you seem happy with them expanding their net so in that case no one expands the pro RL playing pool! whats wrong if they ###### off to a bigger club, that happens you cant base your entire plan on where the players end up.. i am sure there are a few good quality players who have moved from good quality clubs to other good clubs in the past..

who is to say that they wont bring money into the league.. maybe not straight off but after a couple of seasons they may build up enough following to catch a couple of people with some cash that they bring in.. to say that they won't is as bad as me saying they will.. pure sepculation but in a city like Sheffield there is more chance than in many others that can bid for the next liscence.

who said the team will lose, have you never seen a good team that isnt full off superstars... there are plenty of great teams that arent full of great players but that are a team.. arguably sheffield eagles can prove their own point in 1998 at Wembley..

The eagles can add a fair bit, same/better as other teams that will be vying for the place.. to say that they cannot add anything i belive is missing a huge amount, but then that seems to be the defacto position on anything eagles based.

As i say i dont think they are ready now.. but i the future i think sheffield have a lot they can add and to write them off now i think is bizarre., and quite sad..


Well who can argue with that?

It's very optimistic and hopeful.

In 17 years of closely watching Super League and how it works I cannot see any of that happening for the specific reasons I outline and you ignore.

If I were to respectfully reply to this view which I will as you have been kind enough to provide it I would say it's wishful thinking.

We can beg to differ

Edited by The Parksider, 17 October 2012 - 03:38 PM.


#382 RP London

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:39 PM

Well over 100 first XV11 SL players are from SL towns and less than 40 are from Championship towns.

What's your point? Mine is that you need SL clubs where you are most likely to find quality young rugby players.

I think you may be proving lies damn lies and statistics to be honest.. Super League at the moment is based in big towns within the heartlands.. Championship clubs firstly could be classified as within the same town as super league clubs for some (all depends what boundaries etc you are using).. but also they are the bigger areas of population density, championship clubs come from areas of smaller populaiton density i would expect.

you ask my point.. Champ one is expanding, and that will help the junior development in those areas.. Celtic Crusaders started in Champ one and they helped the junior development expand as are south Wales Scorpians, North Wales Crusaders, Gateshead and the cumbrian clubs.. all these clubs are stimulating the junior game.. a super league club in the locations may help more but these ones are still helping the game in their areas.. thats the point.. ANY club stimulates junior growth.

#383 The Parksider

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:40 PM

Do you think a Sheffield SL club will have the travelling expenses of Toulouse ? Maybe they need a bigger budget having to travel to the UK every second week.


Try and deal with the point.

Most Superleague clubs turn over £4M.

Sheffield turn over approx £1M

Sky will give them something like £1.2M

My bet is you have run a business at one time and know full well there's a big hole.

There was a big hole in their finances last time.

If you can't deal with these points with any substance and believe Sheffield will find the money without a rich backer, which I believe is wishful thinking, then Let's beg to differ.

Edited by The Parksider, 17 October 2012 - 03:43 PM.


#384 RP London

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:41 PM

I think Sheffield will turn over something approaching £1M that's what you have to turn over to get in Superleague.

I think Les Catalans are budgeting to turn over £5.6M I think we are looking at SL turnovers of over £4M.

Add Sheffields £1M to the SLY money of £1.2M and you can see how massively far behind the Eagles will be.

So that may help???


not at all, just becuase les cats budget for 5.6m doesnt mean you must have 5.6m... 2.2m may be enough if they dont pay out more than 2.2m, we dont know the extra income brought in from other areas either..

you and me both know its not as simple as you are trying to make out.

#385 RP London

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:43 PM

I can see we need you in club administration.

You don't know what the balance sheet looks like. Well, it's available at Companies House for a quid, along with the profit and loss account. Profit of just under £10000 for the year. Six figure excess of liabilities over assets.

They've stopped digging the hole but it's not being back-filled all that quickly.


fair enough.. but i have my own busines to run so i dont sit there running the rule over someone like the eagles.. but simply the balance sheet gives you a snap shot in time of what is going on.. you need much more to really give the indepth "how a specific club can survive" answer as no 2 clubs are the same.

#386 The Parksider

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:45 PM

1. £2.2m may be enough if they dont pay out more than 2.2m,

2. we dont know the extra income brought in from other areas either..


1. Nobody has survived in SL on a turnover of £2.2M

2. Yes we do Whaling was clear what little commercial income they had was down.

#387 RP London

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:49 PM

Well who can argue with that?

It's very optimistic and hopeful.

In 17 years of closely watching Super League and how it works I cannot see any of that happening for the specific reasons I outline and you ignore.

If I were to respectfully reply to this view which I will as you have been kind enough to provide it I would say it's wishful thinking.

We can beg to differ


i dont see it as wishful thinking.. but i am not looking at this all happening tomorrow either.. i dont see why a city like sheffield wont take the eagles on board and i dont see why a team that keeps to what it earns should be excluded from super league becuase they dont make x amount.. if they can compete (which is debatable of course) by spending less then is that not a good thing??

that is surely what the documents are for during the liscence period, top explain how this will work

#388 Griff

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:49 PM

Imply? Clearly when Wigan went on their winning run they had loads of kids playing and the same happens in Leeds. Go to similar sized places where the RL club is not doing much and you don't see that many kids playing? Of course kids look at SL on telly and of course kids are attracted to play it at school and want to be signed on by their local pro club.

Why are we having a series on denial posts on some pretty simple principles???


To establish which - in your opinion - is cause and which is effect.

Are the kids there because the SL club is there or is the SL club there because the kids are there ?
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#389 The Parksider

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:50 PM

Was it not Ralph Rimmer who helped greatly in the demise of Sheffield Eagles Mk 1?


No it was paying professional wages on low crowds.

ANYWAY can you help. In 2003 Halifax came bottom on no points. Can you remember the turnover they did that season??

#390 keighley

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:51 PM

Have I said they are not, where my view differs from yours is that I don't see Sheffield being fit for SL within the next ten years at minimum, unless the saviour comes along the M1 on his white charger.

The reality is that Sheffield are a very long way from being fit for SL, they are not alone, there are a few other Championship clubs who are way off being in a position to be a realistic SL club but spout about it (cue the reply "yeah and some SL clubs blah blah blah").


I never have given any time frame for Sheffield to be in SL. I have repeatedly said, in fact, that they are not ready for SL. The club has stated their ambition to aim for a SL place. I don't think they have set a time frame either. I have merely said that Sheffield could be a good bet for SL given the size of Sheffield, their proximity to the heartlands and their recent successes and progress since their re entry to the RFL.

You and Parksider are so SL centric in your views that there seems to be no space in your vision to accept that clubs outside of SL can ever advance from where they are at present to the point whereby they could be ready for a SL place. I am not in a position to answer detailed questions as to exactly how individual clubs can achieve these goals but I think that some will get there. The RFL will judge if they are ready or not, if they tick the boxes or not, if and when such clubs submit their applications.

#391 RP London

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:53 PM

1. Nobody has survived in SL on a turnover of £2.2M

2. Yes we do Whaling was clear what little commercial income they had was down.


1. and again just becuase it hasnt doesnt mean it cant... but again i would expect other income streams to rise even if the only thing you based it on was increased away supporters..

2. yes for this time within the same league in a period of recession.. that doesnt mean this wouldnt rise with promotion and a better economic environment..

all i say is that today is not tomorrow is not 3 years time.. as i have said ad infinitum.. they are not ready TODAY but it doesnt rule them out in the future!

#392 The Parksider

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:53 PM

Are the kids there because the SL club is there or is the SL club there because the kids are there ?


Historically it looks very much like a half way house.

If a club does well then the local supporters and players tend to rise in number.

If a club does badly interest in the game tends to fall away.

It's a very simple principle and I see nothing to counter it?

#393 Griff

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:56 PM

No it was paying professional wages on low crowds.

Actually, it was the White Knight dismounting from his charger......
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#394 The Parksider

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:56 PM

All i say is that today is not tomorrow is not 3 years time.. as i have said ad infinitum.. they are not ready TODAY but it doesnt rule them out in the future!


What you haven't done is backed that up with any element of logical reasoning as to how it may happen.

Equally I can say Hunslet are not ruled out of Superleague yet.

Equally I can say that Bury Broncos could become the SL team for Manchester.

i can go against logic all day, but it doesn't make for any sort of a debate does it.

#395 Griff

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:57 PM

Historically it looks very much like a half way house.

If a club does well then the local supporters and players tend to rise in number.

If a club does badly interest in the game tends to fall away.

It's a very simple principle and I see nothing to counter it?


Quite. So really, this point doesn't strengthen either case.
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#396 The Parksider

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:57 PM

Actually, it was the White Knight dismounting from his charger......


So what is Eagles current turnover and what turnover do you think they need to compete in SL?

#397 Griff

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:00 PM

..
all i say is that today is not tomorrow is not 3 years time.. as i have said ad infinitum.. they are not ready TODAY but it doesnt rule them out in the future!


You're right - but Sheffield need to get their crowds up to 3000+ in the Division they're in before talking about what they'll do in $uperleague.
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#398 RP London

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:03 PM

What you haven't done is backed that up with any element of logical reasoning as to how it may happen.

Equally I can say Hunslet are not ruled out of Superleague yet.

Equally I can say that Bury Broncos could become the SL team for Manchester.

i can go against logic all day, but it doesn't make for any sort of a debate does it.



equally none of the above are rules out of super league.. IF they can get their house in order..

but if your going to go on like that then i shall leave this thread now becuase that ignores all the points i have made where i have pointed out where there could be increases.. you have the easiest argument of saying "no that will never happen" becuase i cannot prove that it will happen.. thats the daftest way to look at it..

#399 The Parksider

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:04 PM

Quite. So really, this point doesn't strengthen either case.


I would say that if a competetive SL team was in sheffield for 20 years then you'd see a number of Sheffield born SL players and crowds better than 6,000.

I would say that if a competitive team was in Wales, Touluse, Featherstone, West Cumbria etc for 20 years it would do better than this.

Nobody can deny being in SL would make Sheffield a bigger club, but the level of growth in a heavy soccer environment may be less than SL can achieve elsewhere

SL places are heavily restricted so the RFL have to be careful who they give them to.

Sheffield have to offer better growth in SL than the other incumbents.

#400 RP London

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:04 PM

You're right - but Sheffield need to get their crowds up to 3000+ in the Division they're in before talking about what they'll do in $uperleague.

i think i have agreed with you on that point earlier on.. i certainly do agree with you they need to get themselves up on that level and they are working at it at the momnet.. and this liscence may come too early