549 replies to this topic

[The Parksider]

What a load of......Wigan, Huddersfield, Leeds, Wigan, Hull, Bradford, infinitum and Salford all have significant if not overwhelming soccer competiton in some cases. Do you suggest we get rid of those teams from RL because of the soccer presence.?

Most of these clubs pre-date soccer in their area so they managed to grow some very strong roots, that keep them alive today.

In tremendous contrast Sheffield was a massive soccer city from the 1850's on and the two clubs are massive clubs today and Soccer dominates.

It's therefore understandably hard for Sheffield to grow big roots.

Can you just sit back a minute and appreciate the difference.

You may find in the coming years Salford end up losing their SL place in a dual city where Broughton are no more, Swinton are a pale shadow of their former self and Salford can only draw 5,000 fans from one of the biggest conurbations in the country.

Edited by The Parksider, 17 October 2012 - 06:57 PM.

[The Parksider]

O'Conner seems to be one of the new breed of wealthy backers, he'll invest money but he won't pick up the wage bill.

Interesting thought, they won't pick up the bill at HKR, Cas, Widnes?, Salford................

It could end in a 12 club Superleague but I was interested in Glovers suggestion of reducing the salary cap.

One way or another something may give.

[Padge]

Interesting thought, they won't pick up the bill at HKR, Cas, Widnes?, Salford................

It could end in a 12 club Superleague but I was interested in Glovers suggestion of reducing the salary cap.

One way or another something may give.

Hudgell is obviously starting to cut his cloth, O'Conner has set his stall out, Wilkinson has always seemed to keep a tight rein, Cas have nobody to pick up the tab and seem to be heading for a struggle (I hope I am wrong).

I can't see the bigger clubs holding much truck with a reduced cap, I think they'll look at a smaller league first, as long as it doesn't impact on the Sky contract too much.

[keighley]

The bit in bold is utter tripe.

I have often stated quite clearly that ANY club can make a go of SL, I have never stated that any club could NEVER get in and stay in.

I have often also repeated ad nauseam that its all about money. Any club that can generate enough money can get there, if you can't get the funds though forget it, you'll just near kill the club.

And so have I stated that it is all about the money ad nauseam multam, but you seem to take the view that no club will get the money and no club will therefore get into SL. This dismissal of Sheffield's ambitions is a case in point. As I and others have stated, they are not ready, they do not have the money. This might not always be the case. Their administrators are working on it. Instead of repeating the usual " They don't have money, they will never have money, their crowds are too small, they have no players base, they can't get into SL for 20 years", why don't you just accept the positive strides they have made for their club, briefly state your case re the money and then wish them well and hope the plans they have to get into SL are successful.

The condemnation or dismissal of Sheffield or Featherstone or any other lower level wannabe is in stark contrast to the overwhelming support and ignoring of money issues that was extended to Bradford.

[Padge]

And so have I stated that it is all about the money ad nauseam multam, but you seem to take the view that no club will get the money and no club will therefore get into SL. This dismissal of Sheffield's ambitions is a case in point. As I and others have stated, they are not ready, they do not have the money. This might not always be the case. Their administrators are working on it. Instead of repeating the usual " They don't have money, they will never have money, their crowds are too small, they have no players base, they can't get into SL for 20 years", why don't you just accept the positive strides they have made for their club, briefly state your case re the money and then wish them well and hope the plans they have to get into SL are successful.

The condemnation or dismissal of Sheffield or Featherstone or any other lower level wannabe is in stark contrast to the overwhelming support and ignoring of money issues that was extended to Bradford.

Where have I dismissed or condemned or where have I said Sheffield will never have the money, more tripe, as for Featherstone I stated years back and often repeated that they are the dark horse for an SL spot and could finish up as the 'Calder' club, so yet more tripe.

[RP London]

Thanks for correcting Northern Sol.

I'm going on the reports from Widnes fans and others in the know over there who state that several of the Widnes targets were offered rather good deals but chose not to go to Widnes. In terms of having money I'm going on reports that O'Connor is wealthy and on the day he slapped £500K on the table to show RFL/SLE his intent.

I do appreciate also that he stated an intent that the club would generate it's own income and spend to that and he would not bankroll them to too great an extent i.e. year on year on year.

How far O'Connor will be a sugar daddy remains to be seen, but the essence of my point was Widnes have struggled and they have someone with money. Sheffield do not. The other point I made and RP ignores is if Sheffield unearthed a Zac Hardaker I do not believe such a player would stay with Sheffield. If anyone wants to see clubs who can't hang on to their best players then all they have to do is look at Cas, HKR & Salford, the common denominator is lack of money.

Got an email from someone to check this ruddy thread about this post...

Come off it parky 3.33 today I posted about the Zak Hardaker type player, you even quoted the post... That's poor to say I am ignoring it especially when you are popping at other people for misunderstanding you

[RP London]

Most of these clubs pre-date soccer in their area so they managed to grow some very strong roots, that keep them alive today.

In tremendous contrast Sheffield was a massive soccer city from the 1850's on and the two clubs are massive clubs today and Soccer dominates.

It's therefore understandably hard for Sheffield to grow big roots.

Can you just sit back a minute and appreciate the difference.

You may find in the coming years Salford end up losing their SL place in a dual city where Broughton are no more, Swinton are a pale shadow of their former self and Salford can only draw 5,000 fans from one of the biggest conurbations in the country.

While I am here:

Yes soccer city but for the last 17 years the seasons do not clash so much any more so you can have both.

The sporting landscape for kids is radically diffrent to when I grew up in the late 80s early 90s but i've said this before and you ignore it because it doesn't suit. Loads more kids playing both rugbys ans other sports.. soccers domination is still there but we only need small inroads to make a big difference and from 15-20 years ago the amount of kids playing and therefore parents getting interested is massively different.

But what do I know I only live here

[keighley]

Where have I dismissed or condemned or where have I said Sheffield will never have the money, more tripe, as for Featherstone I stated years back and often repeated that they are the dark horse for an SL spot and could finish up as the 'Calder' club, so yet more tripe.

If you are stating that you support these clubs and think they can become members of SL, if they get the financing, then fine, but that is not the impression i have of your views.

[Marauder]

Where have I dismissed or condemned or where have I said Sheffield will never have the money, more tripe, as for Featherstone I stated years back and often repeated that they are the dark horse for an SL spot and could finish up as the 'Calder' club, so yet more tripe.

Didn't Manchester United start as a works team?

[Padge]

If you are stating that you support these clubs and think they can become members of SL, if they get the financing, then fine, but that is not the impression i have of your views.

Well your impression is utterly, totally and absolutely wrong and I don't know where you have a got it from.

I am against clubs going bust trying to buy their way into SL with money they don't have, and I have no time fro the notion that any club regardless can survive in SL once they get their hands on the Sky money, but if any club can earn enough by whatever means and meet the criteria to be an SL club I couldn't care who they are.

I often bring up reasons why I think club A or club B may find it difficult to get where they need to be but that in no way at all means I believe they shouldn't be allowed near SL.

You are I'm afraid very sadly mistaken in you presumptions.

[The Parksider]

You (Padge) and Parksider are so SL centric in your views that there seems to be no space in your vision to accept that clubs outside of SL can ever advance from where they are at present to the point whereby they could be ready for a SL place.

You and others are so blindly optimistic in your views that there seems to be no space in your vision to appreciate the events of Superleague this past 17 years and take them into account. Here are a few.

1. In the formative years of SL Lyndsay tries to get rid of the smaller clubs through “merger” which in reality would have been the bigger club swallowing the smaller club. In the process he insults two of the smaller clubs.

2. Keighley, Batley, Hunslet and Dewsbury are all blocked from Superleague when we are supposed to have P & R. Huddersfield however are repeatedly reprieved. Did we have fair P & R – I don’t think so just manipulation.

3. London go into administration, the clubs are set to relegate them, The RFL under Lewis now rescues them and gives them an SL place ad infinitum in Superleague. Before the license committee even sits London are effectively in.

4. Lewis announces Les Catalans are in for 3 years effecting the first licence before the system is even adopted. By the time Cats 3 years is up P & R is abolished anyway. They will not be relegated.

5. Lewis accepts Samuels Crusaders into the RFL and rushes them all the way to the top in a record climb from nothing to the top division. Manipulation or what?

6. Championship clubs like Leigh, Halifax, Barrow cheekily put in SL applications that are dismissed out of hand. Two of the clubs complain bitterly and are told to shut up. They shut up.

7. Wakefield go bust. The RFL save them and put them back in SL. Bradford go bust The RFL save them and put them back in SL. Superleague ratify the moves, the Championship clubs keep their mouths shut.

8. To save SL clubs money the RFL then allow Superleague clubs to tie up championship clubs as their “A” teams thus effectively ending Superleague dreams for many championship clubs and isolating clubs who retain ambition. Two clubs complain bitterly and are ignored.

9. All through this Superleague monitor the championship clubs playing rosters. Any decent player at any Championship club is whisked away thus making it impossible to build a side for superleague outside Superleague.

10 All through this SL clubs actively market their clubs and sell season tickets in the championship neighbours areas

11. The leaders of the four biggest SL clubs go to France this year two years before the licensing committee next sit and unilaterally wave Toulouse through for Superleague 2018. Astonishingly people who are arguing for Sheffield in 2018 (like you) post what a marvellous idea this is.

12. On Bradford's demise the RFL suggest several clubs may be asked to apply for their place and Sheffield is not one of them. On thumbing their nose at the RFL by winning the Championship the RFL fail to congratulate the club leading their director to lament “do the RFL Care”.

Keighley my good friend, and other valued colleagues on here, wake up and small the coffee and kindly understand my pessimism……….

[Lounge Room Lizard]

No it was paying professional wages on low crowds.

ANYWAY can you help. In 2003 Halifax came bottom on no points. Can you remember the turnover they did that season??

No I dont know. Halifax did actually win a game though they had no points at the end of the season. I do know that Fax made the decision to put a team out who cost next to nothing to pay off the debts the former regime headed by Nigel Wood had piled up. The impression that Halifax played the 2003 season on such a low cap due to not be able to spend more is wrong. Halifax headed by the late Stephen Pearson attempted to pay off people and redfuce the debt. Halifax could have spent more money on players in 2003, but the old debts would have killed them - which it eventually did in around 2006 when they asked for the buckets. Them debts were actually mainly from the SL days with Nigel Wood as CEO that had built up to such a degree and got worse due to interest etc as they owed the banks a lot and could sadly never got rid of it. Maybe Halifax should have gone in to administration in 2003.Halifax struggled even in the championship with them debts. I can see certain SL clubs struggling now with them debts trying to live the dream of SL but at the same time trying to pay debts but eventually it becomes too much. Turnover was never the real problem for Halifax because even if they had got more money in than what was going out the old debts were so high that Wood and the board had built up the interest was way more than probably any SL club was making then or since then. Now Halifax are clear of that debt they have been able to build from 2007 onwards. They are now in a position to make a small profit and run U18s and U23s as well as the first team. They are also in a position that they can do this which many SL teams cant. Would going fulltime change this? Possibly but they do have a board with people who do have money like Tony Abbott, Mike Steele, Mike RIley etc who have given Fax money as and when. Abbotts firm sponsor Fax and is allegedly better than some SL deals..

[Padge]

Didn't Manchester United start as a works team?

From the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company.

[Dennis Bloodnock]

No I dont know. Halifax did actually win a game though they had no points at the end of the season. I do know that Fax made the decision to put a team out who cost next to nothing to pay off the debts the former regime headed by Nigel Wood had piled up. The impression that Halifax played the 2003 season on such a low cap due to not be able to spend more is wrong. Halifax headed by the late Stephen Pearson attempted to pay off people and redfuce the debt. Halifax could have spent more money on players in 2003, but the old debts would have killed them - which it eventually did in around 2006 when they asked for the buckets. Them debts were actually mainly from the SL days with Nigel Wood as CEO that had built up to such a degree and got worse due to interest etc as they owed the banks a lot and could sadly never got rid of it. Maybe Halifax should have gone in to administration in 2003.Halifax struggled even in the championship with them debts. I can see certain SL clubs struggling now with them debts trying to live the dream of SL but at the same time trying to pay debts but eventually it becomes too much. Turnover was never the real problem for Halifax because even if they had got more money in than what was going out the old debts were so high that Wood and the board had built up the interest was way more than probably any SL club was making then or since then. Now Halifax are clear of that debt they have been able to build from 2007 onwards. They are now in a position to make a small profit and run U18s and U23s as well as the first team. They are also in a position that they can do this which many SL teams cant. Would going fulltime change this? Possibly but they do have a board with people who do have money like Tony Abbott, Mike Steele, Mike RIley etc who have given Fax money as and when. Abbotts firm sponsor Fax and is allegedly better than some SL deals..

If all what you type is true,and I don't dis-believe you how on earth did this Nigel Wood character get a top job with the RFL?
Is he the top man at Red Hall?

[Lounge Room Lizard]

You cant blame everything on how Fax got in to debt on Wood, but as CEO he has to take alot of the blame and he had some crazy ideas ( Blue Sox name was his idea though many people hated it) and the way he did things alienated many that didnt help things. I cant believe as CEO he didnt see the problems sooner and why did he push so many people away from the club? The communication betwen Fax and the fans was appalling and the sale of Thrum Hall has many questions that will never get answered. These things did push people away from following Fax. He seemed to ignore the fans and sponsors etc and at the end no communication between the club and players, fans and sponsors. Wood left Fax to go to the RFL and then around a month or so later, the full extent of Fax problems came out. Wood is not a bad person but for many Halifax fans he is incompetant and is not the right person to run an organization based on his time at Halifax.

[Terry Mullaney]

You and others are so blindly optimistic in your views that there seems to be no space in your vision to appreciate the events of Superleague this past 17 years and take them into account. Here are a few.

1. In the formative years of SL Lyndsay tries to get rid of the smaller clubs through “merger” which in reality would have been the bigger club swallowing the smaller club. In the process he insults two of the smaller clubs.

2. Keighley, Batley, Hunslet and Dewsbury are all blocked from Superleague when we are supposed to have P & R. Huddersfield however are repeatedly reprieved. Did we have fair P & R – I don’t think so just manipulation.

3. London go into administration, the clubs are set to relegate them, The RFL under Lewis now rescues them and gives them an SL place ad infinitum in Superleague. Before the license committee even sits London are effectively in.

4. Lewis announces Les Catalans are in for 3 years effecting the first licence before the system is even adopted. By the time Cats 3 years is up P & R is abolished anyway. They will not be relegated.

5. Lewis accepts Samuels Crusaders into the RFL and rushes them all the way to the top in a record climb from nothing to the top division. Manipulation or what?

6. Championship clubs like Leigh, Halifax, Barrow cheekily put in SL applications that are dismissed out of hand. Two of the clubs complain bitterly and are told to shut up. They shut up.

7. Wakefield go bust. The RFL save them and put them back in SL. Bradford go bust The RFL save them and put them back in SL. Superleague ratify the moves, the Championship clubs keep their mouths shut.

8. To save SL clubs money the RFL then allow Superleague clubs to tie up championship clubs as their “A” teams thus effectively ending Superleague dreams for many championship clubs and isolating clubs who retain ambition. Two clubs complain bitterly and are ignored.

9. All through this Superleague monitor the championship clubs playing rosters. Any decent player at any Championship club is whisked away thus making it impossible to build a side for superleague outside Superleague.

10 All through this SL clubs actively market their clubs and sell season tickets in the championship neighbours areas

11. The leaders of the four biggest SL clubs go to France this year two years before the licensing committee next sit and unilaterally wave Toulouse through for Superleague 2018. Astonishingly people who are arguing for Sheffield in 2018 (like you) post what a marvellous idea this is.

12. On Bradford's demise the RFL suggest several clubs may be asked to apply for their place and Sheffield is not one of them. On thumbing their nose at the RFL by winning the Championship the RFL fail to congratulate the club leading their director to lament “do the RFL Care”.

Keighley my good friend, and other valued colleagues on here, wake up and small the coffee and kindly understand my pessimism……….

and....

13. The year 2015 saw the return of annual promotion and relegation to and from SL subject to sensible and achievable minimum standards. The remaining few ambitious Championship clubs are at last invited to the party.

[keighley]

and....

13. The year 2015 saw the return of annual promotion and relegation to and from SL subject to sensible and achievable minimum standards. The remaining few ambitious Championship clubs are at last invited to the party.

That would be a dream come true and a just and decent way to go. However, looking at the long and depressing list of injustices as listed by Parksider in the name,all of them, except for the Catalans and Crusaders expansions, perpetrated by the entrenched members of SL in cahoots with the RFL, to cement and solidify what they think is their god given right to a SL place,I think there is zero chance of that happening.

They think they are helping the game no doubt by preserving SL for those paragons of profit and efficiency, but they are doing just the opposite. By the time they have destroyed the lower divisions and the only RL clubs in the land are the 14 or 12 or even 10 left in SL, playing each other year after year with monotonous regularity with no fresh fixtures or different clubs coming to the party, I think interest from viewers will wane and without the TV they will be shot.

Variety is the spice of life and change is good. Every club should have the right to get to the highest echelons and this whole SL smacks of elitism and oligarchy. St helens and Leeds should remember when they were not top clubs way back at the dawn of the game and nobody prevented them from rising to the top of the tree. Most of the rest, including Wigan and Bradford should remember when they were in the 2nd division and the road back was not closed off to them. Some were in the 2nd division very recently.

The administration of the game has been hi jacked by the power elite and they are not acting with the interests of the game of RL in mind but, instead, are acting solely in the interests of the SL. I think the whole edifice will come crashing down when they have suceeded in reducing the league to a rump of 10 clubs, but by then, it will be over. The kick and clap brigade will inherit the Rugby earth in this country and it will be a tradgedy.

[The Parksider]

No I dont know. Halifax did actually win a game though they had no points at the end of the season. I do know that Fax made the decision to put a team out who cost next to nothing to pay off the debts the former regime headed by Nigel Wood had piled up. The impression that Halifax played the 2003 season on such a low cap due to not be able to spend more is wrong. Halifax headed by the late Stephen Pearson attempted to pay off people and redfuce the debt. Halifax could have spent more money on players in 2003, but the old debts would have killed them - which it eventually did in around 2006 when they asked for the buckets. Them debts were actually mainly from the SL days with Nigel Wood as CEO that had built up to such a degree and got worse due to interest etc as they owed the banks a lot and could sadly never got rid of it. Maybe Halifax should have gone in to administration in 2003.Halifax struggled even in the championship with them debts. I can see certain SL clubs struggling now with them debts trying to live the dream of SL but at the same time trying to pay debts but eventually it becomes too much. Turnover was never the real problem for Halifax because even if they had got more money in than what was going out the old debts were so high that Wood and the board had built up the interest was way more than probably any SL club was making then or since then. Now Halifax are clear of that debt they have been able to build from 2007 onwards. They are now in a position to make a small profit and run U18s and U23s as well as the first team. They are also in a position that they can do this which many SL teams cant. Would going fulltime change this? Possibly but they do have a board with people who do have money like Tony Abbott, Mike Steele, Mike RIley etc who have given Fax money as and when. Abbotts firm sponsor Fax and is allegedly better than some SL deals..You cant blame everything on how Fax got in to debt on Wood, but as CEO he has to take alot of the blame and he had some crazy ideas ( Blue Sox name was his idea though many people hated it) and the way he did things alienated many that didnt help things. I cant believe as CEO he didnt see the problems sooner and why did he push so many people away from the club? The communication betwen Fax and the fans was appalling and the sale of Thrum Hall has many questions that will never get answered. These things did push people away from following Fax. He seemed to ignore the fans and sponsors etc and at the end no communication between the club and players, fans and sponsors. Wood left Fax to go to the RFL and then around a month or so later, the full extent of Fax problems came out. Wood is not a bad person but for many Halifax fans he is incompetent and is not the right person to run an organization based on his time at Halifax.

Thank you for the time and effort to comprehensively answer my question. I take your final point.

Prior to that fateful season how did the debts come about and mount up in the first place?

[The Parksider]

13. The year 2015 saw the return of annual promotion and relegation to and from SL subject to sensible and achievable minimum standards. The remaining few ambitious Championship clubs are at last invited to the party.

I didn't want to post a 13th. because it's unlucky.

I want to ask you why you have posted the phrase "sensible and achievable standards". In particular the "standard" of an average attendance of 2,500.

In reply to "(any old championship club) for Superleague" it has to be remembered that no championship club averages 2,500 fans. So no championship club is going in Superleague, yet all those enthusiastic for it to happen seem to have swallowed the 2,500 figure and keep posting stuff like "My club should be in Superleague subject to meeting an arbitary statistic my club can't meet". Why??

In 2012 the championship was an elite league of the best ten clubs outside Superleague.

In 2013 four clubs will go up who will offer little attraction to existing Championship fans, and who will send not much more than a carload of away fans. Average attendances will be diluted.

So which way will the average crowds of Halifax, Featherstone, Leigh and Sheffield go then? Up or down???

[Marauder]

You and others are so blindly optimistic in your views that there seems to be no space in your vision to appreciate the events of Superleague this past 17 years and take them into account. Here are a few.

1. In the formative years of SL Lyndsay tries to get rid of the smaller clubs through “merger” which in reality would have been the bigger club swallowing the smaller club. In the process he insults two of the smaller clubs.

2. Keighley, Batley, Hunslet and Dewsbury are all blocked from Superleague when we are supposed to have P & R. Huddersfield however are repeatedly reprieved. Did we have fair P & R – I don’t think so just manipulation.

3. London go into administration, the clubs are set to relegate them, The RFL under Lewis now rescues them and gives them an SL place ad infinitum in Superleague. Before the license committee even sits London are effectively in.

4. Lewis announces Les Catalans are in for 3 years effecting the first licence before the system is even adopted. By the time Cats 3 years is up P & R is abolished anyway. They will not be relegated.

5. Lewis accepts Samuels Crusaders into the RFL and rushes them all the way to the top in a record climb from nothing to the top division. Manipulation or what?

6. Championship clubs like Leigh, Halifax, Barrow cheekily put in SL applications that are dismissed out of hand. Two of the clubs complain bitterly and are told to shut up. They shut up.

7. Wakefield go bust. The RFL save them and put them back in SL. Bradford go bust The RFL save them and put them back in SL. Superleague ratify the moves, the Championship clubs keep their mouths shut.

8. To save SL clubs money the RFL then allow Superleague clubs to tie up championship clubs as their “A” teams thus effectively ending Superleague dreams for many championship clubs and isolating clubs who retain ambition. Two clubs complain bitterly and are ignored.

9. All through this Superleague monitor the championship clubs playing rosters. Any decent player at any Championship club is whisked away thus making it impossible to build a side for superleague outside Superleague.

10 All through this SL clubs actively market their clubs and sell season tickets in the championship neighbours areas

11. The leaders of the four biggest SL clubs go to France this year two years before the licensing committee next sit and unilaterally wave Toulouse through for Superleague 2018. Astonishingly people who are arguing for Sheffield in 2018 (like you) post what a marvellous idea this is.

12. On Bradford's demise the RFL suggest several clubs may be asked to apply for their place and Sheffield is not one of them. On thumbing their nose at the RFL by winning the Championship the RFL fail to congratulate the club leading their director to lament “do the RFL Care”.

Keighley my good friend, and other valued colleagues on here, wake up and small the coffee and kindly understand my pessimism……….

And know you understand why I'm so anti RFL taking over the amateur game, if they can control and abuse the pro clubs by taking away any democratic rights on the back of a pittance what will they do to the amateur game for a few balls and a bus pass.

IMO The people in charge are now way off the mark in realising that players and clubs at amateur level do it for enjoyment and love of the game and the ones who are so called guiding the amateur game are IMO just safe guarding their jobs and not the game.

Here you are Parky 3 Moorends lads who went to Cas, 2 made it into the Pro game, the third who Cas actually paid (£6k) the most for received a career ending knee injury at just 17 years of age.

Not sure if Fletch played in the Super League but Martin Ketteridge did.