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Eagles for SL


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#441 Marauder

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 10:09 AM

Another Doncaster lad still playing pro via the Toll Bar club.

Posted Image
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#442 Padge

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 10:11 AM

The attendance issue is a real one, as Parky pointed out average attendance for a club is affected by factors outside of their control in any given season.

Maybe the figure looked at should be the number of season tickets sold, or maybe there is a weighted average for any particular season based on the clubs in the division.*

I wouldn't like the attandence removed completely from the mix, but I think there should be a fairer way to applyn a figure.

*Not sure how that would be calculated as clubs would like to know the target at the start of the season but the calculation couldn't happen until the end of season.

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#443 The Parksider

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:43 PM

1. And know you understand why I'm so anti RFL taking over the amateur game,

2. the ones who are so called guiding the amateur game are IMO just safe guarding their jobs and not the game.

3. Here you are Parky 3 Moorends lads who went to Cas, 2 made it into the Pro game,


1. I understand entirely

2. This is a superb point and is what cycling's governing body is accused of over Lance Armstrong.

3. Martin ended up at Hunslet, we finished him off. Just had a look in my Rothmans. When Donny and Sheffield were both in the first division 1995 Donny had the higher crowds even though they came bottom and eagles were top eight. I used to suggest Donny for Superleague!!!

In that season one Andy Rothwell played for Dons recognise the name?

Gis the names of all the players you picture please....

ALSO Keef Senior was in the Eagles team and down as being an Eagles academy player.

Edited by The Parksider, 18 October 2012 - 12:45 PM.


#444 The Parksider

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 01:00 PM

I wouldn't like the attendance removed completely from the mix.


I can remember Fartown having an average crowd of 524.

London's attendances are dropping towards 2,500

HKR had 2150 as an average one year.

Wakefield 2416 one season

I'd hate Rovers to be close to 2,500 and then their home game with say Halifax be affected by bad weather.

I think using criteria that relate to the Championship as a bar to operating in SL is not fair criteria.

Attendances may be a tacit measure of income. But income is dealt with in the business plan.

As long as directors loans are acceptable in the business plan then the attendance criteria may not matter at all??

there are clubs with big turnovers and empty terraces.

Thoughts??

#445 Padge

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:21 PM

I can remember Fartown having an average crowd of 524.

London's attendances are dropping towards 2,500

HKR had 2150 as an average one year.

Wakefield 2416 one season

I'd hate Rovers to be close to 2,500 and then their home game with say Halifax be affected by bad weather.

I think using criteria that relate to the Championship as a bar to operating in SL is not fair criteria.

Attendances may be a tacit measure of income. But income is dealt with in the business plan.

As long as directors loans are acceptable in the business plan then the attendance criteria may not matter at all??

there are clubs with big turnovers and empty terraces.

Thoughts??

I think having a target in there helps clubs to focus on what is good for the club in the long term future, and plenty of supporters are always good if a sugar daddy walks or has the rug pulled.

Although London's crowds are low they are at the moment subsidised by David Hughes so money isn't really an issue (at the moment), what is worrying about London is what will happen if Hughes decides enough is enough, we saw what happened at Bradford with three times the attendance with no backer when fortunes changed.

Clubs must stop believing that the best marketing tool is the promise of SL and concentrate their efforts more at home, if they have SL ambitions then fair enough, but don't use it is as the raison d'être. They are their to entertain the public by being the best in the competition they are in at any given time, selling SL as the goal should never be publicly on the agenda as the clubs one and only aim.

Quick edit to add:- Maybe the attendance figure maybe should be based on growth rather than an actual fixed bar

Edited by Padge, 18 October 2012 - 02:25 PM.


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#446 shaun mc

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:55 PM

<<<<In 2012 the championship was an elite league of the best ten clubs outside Superleague.

In 2013 four clubs will go up who will offer little attraction to existing Championship fans, and who will send not much more than a carload of away fans. Average attendances will be diluted>>>>

Don't know what you are suggesting here Parky, but that is a shocking case of gereralisation without posting any facts.

2012 attendances


Championship Fev 2283 Fax 2222 Leigh 1772 Sheff 1178 Dewsbury 1134 Keighley 1064 Batley 1013 York 812 Swinton 760 Hunslet 536
Championship 1 Barrow 1396 Workington 897 Crusaders 893 Whitehaven 846 Doncaster 731 Oldham 606 Skolars 547 Rochdale 502 Scorpions 363 Gateshead 287



Note that Barrow would be comfortably the 4th best supported team out of the 2 divisions and probably on a par with Leigh next year with the added attraction of games v Featherstone and Halifax
Town and Haven are ahead of York, Swinton and Hunslet
There will be 6 Cumbrian derby games (ave 1500 - 1800) to add to next years Championship average
All the above does not sound like dilution to me??

I think you should post your comment about 'no more than a car load' on the Town or Haven forum and see how much sensible discussion you get........not much and wear a tin hat!!

Apologies for the format of the attendance info above - it didn't start like that!

Edited by shaun mc, 18 October 2012 - 02:56 PM.


#447 Marauder

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:42 PM

1. I understand entirely

2. This is a superb point and is what cycling's governing body is accused of over Lance Armstrong.

3. Martin ended up at Hunslet, we finished him off. Just had a look in my Rothmans. When Donny and Sheffield were both in the first division 1995 Donny had the higher crowds even though they came bottom and eagles were top eight. I used to suggest Donny for Superleague!!!

In that season one Andy Rothwell played for Dons recognise the name?

Gis the names of all the players you picture please....

ALSO Keef Senior was in the Eagles team and down as being an Eagles academy player.

I was out with Andy last Saturday night around Donny, Andy started his Rugby League career at Moorends.


The other two in the photo with Ketty are Graham Swift (Tallest) and Ian Fletcher, the young boy is the one and only Peter Green.

Edited by Marauder, 18 October 2012 - 04:37 PM.

Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#448 Derwent

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:18 PM

Don't know what you are suggesting here Parky, but that is a shocking case of gereralisation without posting any facts.

2012 attendances


Championship Fev 2283 Fax 2222 Leigh 1772 Sheff 1178 Dewsbury 1134 Keighley 1064 Batley 1013 York 812 Swinton 760 Hunslet 536
Championship 1 Barrow 1396 Workington 897 Crusaders 893 Whitehaven 846 Doncaster 731 Oldham 606 Skolars 547 Rochdale 502 Scorpions 363 Gateshead 287



Note that Barrow would be comfortably the 4th best supported team out of the 2 divisions and probably on a par with Leigh next year with the added attraction of games v Featherstone and Halifax
Town and Haven are ahead of York, Swinton and Hunslet
There will be 6 Cumbrian derby games (ave 1500 - 1800) to add to next years Championship average
All the above does not sound like dilution to me??

I think you should post your comment about 'no more than a car load' on the Town or Haven forum and see how much sensible discussion you get........not much and wear a tin hat!!

Apologies for the format of the attendance info above - it didn't start like that!


Quite right mate, and I'll guarantee that all 3 Cumbrian clubs will take more fans to Yorks & Lancs than will make the reverse trip up to Cumbria at most clubs.

Workington Town. Then. Now. Always.


#449 Keith T

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:25 PM

Quite right mate, and I'll guarantee that all 3 Cumbrian clubs will take more fans to Yorks & Lancs than will make the reverse trip up to Cumbria at most clubs.


Wait until the Yorkshire fans have to make not just 1 but 3 trips up to Cumbria and listen to the whinging. They do tend to forget that our fans do this every other week to away matches. The games between the 3 Cumbrian clubs will bring in some of the largest crowds.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#450 Padge

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:36 PM

Wait until the Yorkshire fans have to make not just 1 but 3 trips up to Cumbria and listen to the whinging. They do tend to forget that our fans do this every other week to away matches. The games between the 3 Cumbrian clubs will bring in some of the largest crowds.

Yorkshire supporters moan about leaving thei own postcode

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#451 shrek

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:36 PM

The attendance issue is a real one,

I'd be amazed if anyone misses out on ticking the attendance box should they manage to tick the others over a cycle.

Seems a pointless one to have in unless they've tightened up all the variables that effect differing methods of counting attendances, including non-attending season ticket holders and freebies etc.

#452 Padge

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:38 PM

I'd be amazed if anyone misses out on ticking the attendance box should they manage to tick the others over a cycle.

Seems a pointless one to have in unless they've tightened up all the variables that effect differing methods of counting attendances, including non-attending season ticket holders and freebies etc.


I don't think its pointless, they just seem to be using the wrong measure.

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#453 The Parksider

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 06:59 PM

Don't know what you are suggesting here Parky, but that is a shocking case of gereralisation without posting any facts.

I think you should post your comment about 'no more than a car load' on the Town or Haven forum and see how much sensible discussion you get........not much and wear a tin hat!!

Apologies for the format of the attendance info above - it didn't start like that!


Sorry shaun, I've tried putting facts together but all I get is "statistics statistics and damned lies" when they don't suit people!!

The car load was unfair, overegging the point.

Lets see what happens, I always recall at Hunslet visits from the Cumbria clubs tended to give below average crowds, it was just a matter of distance. We didn't get up there that often either........

EDIT - here's our Championship winning league season crowds,,,,,


HKR 2054
Leigh 1867
Keighley 1672
Batley 1652
York 1632
Dewsbury 1621
Oldham 1533
Bramley 1522
Swinton 1402
Workington 1325
Donny 1257
rochdale 1181
Barrow 1008
Whitehaven 1004 LPL yearbook

Read it and weep all you Cumbrians, I'll withdraw the car load maybe they came in a motorbike and sidecar :lol:

Edited by The Parksider, 18 October 2012 - 07:15 PM.


#454 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 07:26 PM

Thank you for the time and effort to comprehensively answer my question. I take your final point.

Prior to that fateful season how did the debts come about and mount up in the first place?


As usual in many forms. Thrum Hall was costing Fax a fortune to upkeep, never mind redevelop. Halifax spent a fair bit on plans to redevelop Thrum Hall and there was various drawings and ideas. I think one plan was to sell the Shay and for the soccer lot to move up to Thrum Hall. But I think there was something in the covenant that would not allow professional soccer to be played at Thrum Hall. So despite all the plans and money spent on drawings etc it ended up with Fax now having the plan to sell Thrum Hall and spend a million on the Shay to develop it further. I believe planning applications were submitted. All this doesnt come cheap and especially when it ends up with nothing.The South Stand had been developed using money from the football trust. But as far as most people know, there was no money left from the sale of Thrum Hall to invest in the Shay. Many questions have been asked about where this money went and how much Fax got for the land from Asda etc. But there has and never will be answers from this. Many people was very upset with the way the club handled things and the lack of information of what was going on and how much debt Fax actually had.

Fax had an excellent academy that saw the likes of Chris Chester, Danny Tickle, Sean Penkywicz, David Hodgson, Liam FInn, etc come through. Halifax payed good money to kids at that time and they basically were beating the likes of Leeds and St.Helens in signing the best youth players. But like most SL clubs overspent on players wages and the switch from part time to full time hurt them. 1999 saw Fax sell Chester and clinch to Wigan to pay off debts and keep Fax alive- think the deal was worth over 100K at the time But it didnt help as 2002 the full extent of things came to light. Then to add to it, Halifax wasted money on taking the whole squad to Florida in 2000 to play Salford in Jacksonville. They also sacked the coach Steve Linnane in 2002- a month after giving him a bigger and longer contract! Also the waste of money trip to play in Australia in the World Club Challenge saw Fax- probably like many others just throw good money away on poor planning and poor business decisions when they should have been better run.

The poor management and problems at the club, saw crowds drop from the average of 6500 in the early 90-mid 90s (They even avaeraged over 4000 in the old second division at the start of the 90s) to dropping down to under 4500 in 2000.The club lost Tony Gartland who walked away from the club after a rumour about merging with Bradford in the new SL. Nigel Wood came in as Chief Executive in 1996.The club and Nigel Wood seemed to ignore what the fans wanted and just did there own thing .Prime example being the name "Blue Sox". The local rag did a name suggestion with Halifax Bombers topping the poll. But Nigel Wood ignored all the marketable names and went for his idea of "Blue Sox" which angered a few. What is a "Blue Sox" and how do you market that name? Then came the various plans for Thrum hall and then the sale which took most people by surprise as nobody expected Thrum hall to be sold. The distance between the fans and club kept growing and the crowds started to drop off as said by over 2000 from the early 90s.though they did get slightly better in 2002 with just over 5000 average but still way down from 10 years earlier. Less money coming in and the poor management and the divide between club and fans and wasting money on silly things like the USA Trip etc didnt help Fax cut its costs until too late.

I hope that helps you understand the problems Fax had and that it wasnt that they didnt have the money in 2003 but it was basically the end of the club wasting money and being badly managed. The club had built up some debts and problems that it simply couldnt cope even if it averaged 10,000 or more.The selling of players and Thrum Hall had not closed the debt so a couple of extra thousand fans was never really going to do it. As Chief Executive its my feeling that Nigel Wood was not up to the job and allowed things to spiral out of control. I dont just blame him but from his time at Halifax he created many problems that even today are still there with many and a number have walked away from Halifax during Woods time in charge never to come back.

#455 The Parksider

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 09:03 PM

As usual in many forms. Thrum Hall was costing Fax a fortune to upkeep, never mind redevelop. Halifax spent a fair bit on plans to redevelop Thrum Hall and there was various drawings and ideas. I think one plan was to sell the Shay and for the soccer lot to move up to Thrum Hall. But I think there was something in the covenant that would not allow professional soccer to be played at Thrum Hall. So despite all the plans and money spent on drawings etc it ended up with Fax now having the plan to sell Thrum Hall and spend a million on the Shay to develop it further. I believe planning applications were submitted. All this doesnt come cheap and especially when it ends up with nothing.The South Stand had been developed using money from the football trust. But as far as most people know, there was no money left from the sale of Thrum Hall to invest in the Shay. Many questions have been asked about where this money went and how much Fax got for the land from Asda etc. But there has and never will be answers from this. Many people was very upset with the way the club handled things and the lack of information of what was going on and how much debt Fax actually had.

Fax had an excellent academy that saw the likes of Chris Chester, Danny Tickle, Sean Penkywicz, David Hodgson, Liam FInn, etc come through. Halifax payed good money to kids at that time and they basically were beating the likes of Leeds and St.Helens in signing the best youth players. But like most SL clubs overspent on players wages and the switch from part time to full time hurt them. 1999 saw Fax sell Chester and clinch to Wigan to pay off debts and keep Fax alive- think the deal was worth over 100K at the time But it didnt help as 2002 the full extent of things came to light. Then to add to it, Halifax wasted money on taking the whole squad to Florida in 2000 to play Salford in Jacksonville. They also sacked the coach Steve Linnane in 2002- a month after giving him a bigger and longer contract! Also the waste of money trip to play in Australia in the World Club Challenge saw Fax- probably like many others just throw good money away on poor planning and poor business decisions when they should have been better run.

The poor management and problems at the club, saw crowds drop from the average of 6500 in the early 90-mid 90s (They even avaeraged over 4000 in the old second division at the start of the 90s) to dropping down to under 4500 in 2000.The club lost Tony Gartland who walked away from the club after a rumour about merging with Bradford in the new SL. Nigel Wood came in as Chief Executive in 1996.The club and Nigel Wood seemed to ignore what the fans wanted and just did there own thing .Prime example being the name "Blue Sox". The local rag did a name suggestion with Halifax Bombers topping the poll. But Nigel Wood ignored all the marketable names and went for his idea of "Blue Sox" which angered a few. What is a "Blue Sox" and how do you market that name? Then came the various plans for Thrum hall and then the sale which took most people by surprise as nobody expected Thrum hall to be sold. The distance between the fans and club kept growing and the crowds started to drop off as said by over 2000 from the early 90s.though they did get slightly better in 2002 with just over 5000 average but still way down from 10 years earlier. Less money coming in and the poor management and the divide between club and fans and wasting money on silly things like the USA Trip etc didnt help Fax cut its costs until too late.

I hope that helps you understand the problems Fax had and that it wasnt that they didnt have the money in 2003 but it was basically the end of the club wasting money and being badly managed. The club had built up some debts and problems that it simply couldnt cope even if it averaged 10,000 or more.The selling of players and Thrum Hall had not closed the debt so a couple of extra thousand fans was never really going to do it. As Chief Executive its my feeling that Nigel Wood was not up to the job and allowed things to spiral out of control. I dont just blame him but from his time at Halifax he created many problems that even today are still there with many and a number have walked away from Halifax during Woods time in charge never to come back.

As usual in many forms. Thrum Hall was costing Fax a fortune to upkeep, never mind redevelop. Halifax spent a fair bit on plans to redevelop Thrum Hall and there was various drawings and ideas. I think one plan was to sell the Shay and for the soccer lot to move up to Thrum Hall. But I think there was something in the covenant that would not allow professional soccer to be played at Thrum Hall. So despite all the plans and money spent on drawings etc it ended up with Fax now having the plan to sell Thrum Hall and spend a million on the Shay to develop it further. I believe planning applications were submitted. All this doesnt come cheap and especially when it ends up with nothing.The South Stand had been developed using money from the football trust. But as far as most people know, there was no money left from the sale of Thrum Hall to invest in the Shay. Many questions have been asked about where this money went and how much Fax got for the land from Asda etc. But there has and never will be answers from this. Many people was very upset with the way the club handled things and the lack of information of what was going on and how much debt Fax actually had.

Fax had an excellent academy that saw the likes of Chris Chester, Danny Tickle, Sean Penkywicz, David Hodgson, Liam FInn, etc come through. Halifax payed good money to kids at that time and they basically were beating the likes of Leeds and St.Helens in signing the best youth players. But like most SL clubs overspent on players wages and the switch from part time to full time hurt them. 1999 saw Fax sell Chester and clinch to Wigan to pay off debts and keep Fax alive- think the deal was worth over 100K at the time But it didnt help as 2002 the full extent of things came to light. Then to add to it, Halifax wasted money on taking the whole squad to Florida in 2000 to play Salford in Jacksonville. They also sacked the coach Steve Linnane in 2002- a month after giving him a bigger and longer contract! Also the waste of money trip to play in Australia in the World Club Challenge saw Fax- probably like many others just throw good money away on poor planning and poor business decisions when they should have been better run.

The poor management and problems at the club, saw crowds drop from the average of 6500 in the early 90-mid 90s (They even avaeraged over 4000 in the old second division at the start of the 90s) to dropping down to under 4500 in 2000.The club lost Tony Gartland who walked away from the club after a rumour about merging with Bradford in the new SL. Nigel Wood came in as Chief Executive in 1996.The club and Nigel Wood seemed to ignore what the fans wanted and just did there own thing .Prime example being the name "Blue Sox". The local rag did a name suggestion with Halifax Bombers topping the poll. But Nigel Wood ignored all the marketable names and went for his idea of "Blue Sox" which angered a few. What is a "Blue Sox" and how do you market that name? Then came the various plans for Thrum hall and then the sale which took most people by surprise as nobody expected Thrum hall to be sold. The distance between the fans and club kept growing and the crowds started to drop off as said by over 2000 from the early 90s.though they did get slightly better in 2002 with just over 5000 average but still way down from 10 years earlier. Less money coming in and the poor management and the divide between club and fans and wasting money on silly things like the USA Trip etc didnt help Fax cut its costs until too late.

I hope that helps you understand the problems Fax had and that it wasnt that they didnt have the money in 2003 but it was basically the end of the club wasting money and being badly managed. The club had built up some debts and problems that it simply couldnt cope even if it averaged 10,000 or more.The selling of players and Thrum Hall had not closed the debt so a couple of extra thousand fans was never really going to do it. As Chief Executive its my feeling that Nigel Wood was not up to the job and allowed things to spiral out of control. I dont just blame him but from his time at Halifax he created many problems that even today are still there with many and a number have walked away from Halifax during Woods time in charge never to come back.


An extremely interesting read, you don't get this in RL & LE do you.... BIG thank you.......

#456 shaun mc

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 09:46 PM

Sorry shaun, I've tried putting facts together but all I get is "statistics statistics and damned lies" when they don't suit people!!

The car load was unfair, overegging the point.

Lets see what happens, I always recall at Hunslet visits from the Cumbria clubs tended to give below average crowds, it was just a matter of distance. We didn't get up there that often either........

EDIT - here's our Championship winning league season crowds,,,,,


HKR 2054
Leigh 1867
Keighley 1672
Batley 1652
York 1632
Dewsbury 1621
Oldham 1533
Bramley 1522
Swinton 1402
Workington 1325
Donny 1257
rochdale 1181
Barrow 1008
Whitehaven 1004 LPL yearbook

Read it and weep all you Cumbrians, I'll withdraw the car load maybe they came in a motorbike and sidecar :lol:


What year were these attendances? Seems to me they are on average higher than now - so you may open another can of worms there!

I'll put my neck on the line in that Workington and Barrow will take more to away games than Hunslet, Swinton, Batley, Sheffield and York. And that is with clocking up much more mileage, time and expense attending away games.

#457 Marauder

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 10:21 PM

Yorkshire supporters moan about leaving thei own postcode

The DN post code is massive, it just doesn't cover anywhere except Donny that has a rugby league team :(
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#458 Marauder

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 10:26 PM

Sorry shaun, I've tried putting facts together but all I get is "statistics statistics and damned lies" when they don't suit people!!

The car load was unfair, overegging the point.

Lets see what happens, I always recall at Hunslet visits from the Cumbria clubs tended to give below average crowds, it was just a matter of distance. We didn't get up there that often either........

EDIT - here's our Championship winning league season crowds,,,,,


HKR 2054
Leigh 1867
Keighley 1672
Batley 1652
York 1632
Dewsbury 1621
Oldham 1533
Bramley 1522
Swinton 1402
Workington 1325
Donny 1257
rochdale 1181
Barrow 1008
Whitehaven 1004 LPL yearbook

Read it and weep all you Cumbrians, I'll withdraw the car load maybe they came in a motorbike and sidecar :lol:

I wonder which club creamed the most off of the attendance so the taxman never got his full amount :)
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#459 The Parksider

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 08:03 AM

1. What year were these attendances? Seems to me they are on average higher than now - so you may open another can of worms there!

2. I'll put my neck on the line in that Workington and Barrow will take more to away games than Hunslet, Swinton, Batley, Sheffield and York. And that is with clocking up much more mileage, time and expense attending away games.


1. 1999 Shaun. Cans of worms are fine by me.

2. I bet Hunslet take more to Batley & Dewsbury than Worky, but lets not get into that it's simply about time and distance. We went to the Leeds.v.worky RL cup tie the other year on a Friday night I think. Sat behind a Workington family and they'd been all that way, when us Yorkies can't bring ourselves to cross the M62.

The point wasn't an away fans competition (although one season I did Worky, Haven and Barrow on a friday night - the latter designed to steal an advantage I wager) it was just that if the Championship move to 14 clubs from 10 the additional clubs will stretch the attendance range and there's a danger top clubs trying to get to the 2,500 "minimum standard" for SL entry may find themselves knocked back.

We averaged 1480 in 1999 playing 14 clubs, it's all hypothetical and not absolute proof, but if the four clubs who brought Us the least attendances (quite a coincidence it included Dons, Barrow, Rochdale and whitehaven who are coming up from CC1 this time) were excluded we'd have averaged 1628.

The likes of Featherstone can't afford to have their current 2283 average attendance diluted by games against

Barrow - 1755 in 2011
Whitehaven - 1551 in 2010

You add four attendances at say 1650 to an average of 2283 and you drag that average down to 2088.

When your Superleague place depends on achieving 2500 that's a potentially big blow.......

Delivered by the good old RFL.

Edited by The Parksider, 19 October 2012 - 08:06 AM.


#460 sheddings69

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 08:08 AM

1. 1999 Shaun. Cans of worms are fine by me.

2. I bet Hunslet take more to Batley & Dewsbury than Worky, but lets not get into that it's simply about time and distance. We went to the Leeds.v.worky RL cup tie the other year on a Friday night I think. Sat behind a Workington family and they'd been all that way, when us Yorkies can't bring ourselves to cross the M62.

The point wasn't an away fans competition (although one season I did Worky, Haven and Barrow on a friday night - the latter designed to steal an advantage I wager) it was just that if the Championship move to 14 clubs from 10 the additional clubs will stretch the attendance range and there's a danger top clubs trying to get to the 2,500 "minimum standard" for SL entry may find themselves knocked back.

We averaged 1480 in 1999 playing 14 clubs, it's all hypothetical and not absolute proof, but if the four clubs who brought Us the least attendances (quite a coincidence it included Dons, Barrow, Rochdale and whitehaven who are coming up from CC1 this time) were excluded we'd have averaged 1628.

The likes of Featherstone can't afford to have their current 2283 average attendance diluted by games against

Barrow - 1755 in 2011
Whitehaven - 1551 in 2010

You add four attendances at say 1650 to an average of 2283 and you drag that average down to 2088.

When your Superleague place depends on achieving 2500 that's a potentially big blow.......

Delivered by the good old RFL.


Why would Sheffield or Featherstone want to play in Stupid League - I don't get it??!!