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When does a team become a great team


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#1 Padge

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:30 PM

Wigan in the late eighties and early nineties is the team that most people of the modern era tend to benchmark for comparison. But who are the great teams of recent, or past years, in comparison.

The current Leeds team are amongst the best, Saints from a few years ago were dabbling and Bradford made a stab at it.

I think at the moment Leeds are the leading light.

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#2 ArmchairRhino

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:32 PM

How big a hole does Leeds' recent failure to win a Challenge Cup leave?
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#3 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:34 PM

How is a great team measured,trophies won,impact on the sport,legacy,etc,etc.
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#4 southstand loiner

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:34 PM

How big a hole does Leeds' recent failure to win a Challenge Cup leave?


that depends how big a comp you consider the challenge cup these days .
ah a sunday night in front of the telly watching old rugby league games.
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#5 Padge

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:48 PM

How is a great team measured,trophies won,impact on the sport,legacy,etc,etc.

I think its a combination, which team leaves a mark. It doesn't matter what they win, or what they fail to win. It's about the perception of the club/team.

Leeds are making headlines by being roaring up from filth to the top. That is in itself an amazing achievement to pull off twice is quite stunning,

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#6 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:56 PM

I think its a combination, which team leaves a mark. It doesn't matter what they win, or what they fail to win. It's about the perception of the club/team.

Leeds are making headlines by being roaring up from filth to the top. That is in itself an amazing achievement to pull off twice is quite stunning,

Indeed it is,six GF wins in eight years is not to be sniffed at but could Leeds then only be seen as a team that only really play in September/October,as some people have implied?
Only the enigma that is the Challenge Cup stops me from calling this generation of Leeds players a truly great side.Maybe if they win a few in the next couple of seasons.
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#7 Padge

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:10 PM

Indeed it is,six GF wins in eight years is not to be sniffed at but could Leeds then only be seen as a team that only really play in September/October,as some people have implied?
Only the enigma that is the Challenge Cup stops me from calling this generation of Leeds players a truly great side.Maybe if they win a few in the next couple of seasons.

It is, as you say, the challenge cup that that is the monkey on the back of Leeds.

Is it their failure in that comp that holds them back as being considered as one of the great teams?

i'm sure in Leeds they are up there with the best, but in the rest of the world are they falling short.

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#8 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:19 PM

It is, as you say, the challenge cup that that is the monkey on the back of Leeds.

Is it their failure in that comp that holds them back as being considered as one of the great teams?

i'm sure in Leeds they are up there with the best, but in the rest of the world are they falling short.

I can only speak for myself but I still consider the CC as the one to win,maybe now that the rounds are spread too far apart it has lost something.With winning the GF you always get people saying,"ah yes but they didn't finish top of the league did they" "how can a team be called champions when they were 5th" etc,etc.
Add some Challenge cups and then they can be truly called great.
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#9 Cliffy Lyons

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:23 PM

Watching the game for 47 years I have seen many teams better than the current leeds side as far as ability goes. Wigan team which won the challenge cups year after year proberbly the best. Wigan bought that success though and it is now a Tesco supermarket !. Under a salary cap competition and the sheer team spirit from mostly local lads you would have to say the current Leeds team takes some beating.

Edited by Cliffy Lyons, 07 October 2012 - 08:24 PM.


#10 Saintslass

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:30 PM

But who are the great teams of recent, or past years, in comparison.

The current Leeds team are amongst the best, Saints from a few years ago were dabbling and Bradford made a stab at it.

In recent years - let's say the Superleague era (as that is not far off 20 years duration now) - If you measure the number of trophies won as representing the best team then Saints are still the best team in that era. We've won the most trophies at 18 in that period and Leeds have won 12, our last trophy being in 2008.

If you measure consistency then we've also won the most league matches in the Superleague era so we could also lay claim to being the most consistent over the period too. Until the 2012 season we had reached the grand final every year for six years, at the very least the challenge cup semi final for 12 years and have finished no lower than third in the league since about 2004 I think so even though we haven't won silverware since 2008, we have been in contention for it at least at grand finals.

I think Leeds' lack of challenge cup success and their lower league placing suggests that while they are very good in September/October they aren't such a good team during the rest of the season.

Earlier than the Superleague era then Wigan stand out and before that period is before my time so I don't know.

Edited by Saintslass, 07 October 2012 - 08:32 PM.


#11 Padge

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:31 PM

Watching the game for 47 years I have seen many teams better than the current leeds side as far as ability goes. Wigan team which won the challenge cups year after year proberbly the best. Wigan bought that success though and it is now a Tesco supermarket !. Under a salary cap competition and the sheer team spirit from mostly local lads you would have to say the current Leeds team takes some beating.

All successful teams have bought success, that is how professional sport works.

Leeds are now buying, success, Warrington are buying success, Castleford can't afford to buy success, Salford can't afford it either. Winning costs money, you need more money than the opposition to be a winner.

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#12 gingerjon

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:38 PM

I think Leeds have rewritten the rules. Only two imports out there? They're forcing other teams to look at how they build teams and making them realise that with the riches the NRL possesses that they're not going to be able to bring over too many that are worth it. You need foundations.

In big games they play a kind of football that the rest of the league, or at least its major players, would do well to learn from if they want to beat the aussies. A never-beaten mentality that doesn't just last 80 minutes but a whole season.

Six titles in eight years though. There's no debate in my mind that it's the Super League title that means the most in the full-time era and I don't think there's any argument that a team that is able to have a policy of finishing fifth to make it easier for them to win should count as one of the greats.
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#13 southstand loiner

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:42 PM

All successful teams have bought success, that is how professional sport works.

Leeds are now buying, success, Warrington are buying success, Castleford can't afford to buy success, Salford can't afford it either. Winning costs money, you need more money than the opposition to be a winner.


in part your right as you do need money as also wigan and saints have proved but as all these teams have proved you also need to get good youngsters into your academy setup which while not cheap should be within the budget of any team within super league .
still its the job of all super league teams to spend up to the salary cap max or as near as dam it . i mean were not talking tens of millions are we any team should be able to get just over one and a half millon together each season for player contracts after all its less than a div 3 football team pays out .
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#14 Padge

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:50 PM

in part your right as you do need money as also wigan and saints have proved but as all these teams have proved you also need to get good youngsters into your academy setup which while not cheap should be within the budget of any team within super league .
still its the job of all super league teams to spend up to the salary cap max or as near as dam it . i mean were not talking tens of millions are we any team should be able to get just over one and a half millon together each season for player contracts after all its less than a div 3 football team pays out .

My money will always beat your youngsters, that's how it works.

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#15 Exiled Wiganer

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:57 PM

Well it's that week in the year when the Leeds contributiors come out in force. Cliffy trots out the lazy and ignorant snide comment to rewrite Wigan's history.
The best team in the SL era was Saints' 2006 vintage.
This Leeds team is not a great team in my opinion but they are very proficient in winning the year's big prize.


#16 Derwent

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:07 PM

The best team in the SL era was Saints' 2006 vintage


I'd agree with that. They were a great team not just because they did the double but because of the manner in which they played the game. They were a joy to watch when they were in full flow, some of their attacking play was incredible.

I'd compare this Leeds team to, funnily enough, the Leeds football team of the Don Revie era. Respected for their ultra-professionalism, their will to win and their uncompromising approach, but not really loved and admired by neutral fans.

Edited by Derwent, 07 October 2012 - 09:10 PM.

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#17 Marauder

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:21 PM

that depends how big a comp you consider the challenge cup these days .

Well I was thinking about the Grand-Final yesterday and I couldn't help thinking that the play off's are just an elite end of season knock out competition.
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#18 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:52 PM

There are still quite a number of players in this present group who were playing in 2004,and they finished top,2007-2008 the difference between top and second was very slight,and I think 2010 if it was not for a very heavy injury list,LEEDS would have walked it again.Kevin Sinfield alluded yesterday the squad needs to be bigger in order for rotation.Leeds are denied admiration because they are Leeds
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
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#19 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:24 AM

Leeds are denied admiration because they are Leeds

This
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#20 Marty Funkhouser

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:18 AM

This


I wouldn't say so. I think Leeds and many of their players have a lot of respect and admiration for what they do and how well they do their jobs at the business end. It is the fact that ,particulary the last two seasons , their achievement has been to "win" the end of season play off series rather than be what people percieve of as a "champion" team. There is a difference. Never before has a team deemed to be champions having lost 40% of their league matches. It seems to be perverse to many people. And it does stick in the craw to have to call such a team the best team, clearly they have not been for a majority of the season.

This might be more a reflection on the path the game has taken and the major failings of the current play off format rather than the Leeds club who could be said to be merely playing the system .

In addition this Leeds side has rarely been seen to come up with a performance of blowing another top side away with scintillating RL. Something the Saints , Wigan and Bradord sides could do with aplomb. They are masters of the gritty winning of close games but even mid table teams do not exactly fear them. It would be of great interest if they played an NRL club in mid to late season. For example i would happily wager had Leeds been playing the Storm in Sydney last week they would have struggled to trouble the scoreboard. Makes me a little sad to say that of our "champions".

Edited by Marty Funkhouser, 08 October 2012 - 08:21 AM.