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When does a team become a great team


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#21 brooza

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:31 AM

This Leeds team is not a great team in my opinion

I would disagree with that and counter with: they're not (all) great individual players, but they are a great team
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#22 Amber Avenger

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:38 AM

Leeds are denied admiration because they are Leeds


There is a grain of truth in that perhaps, but I think generally speaking it's just fatigue due to over-familiarity. If anyone else had gone on this spectacular run like Leeds have done - including the wins from fifth - I think a lot of similar reactions/criticisims would be coming out.

Although pound for pound they are not currently as good as Bradford 2003, Saints 2006, or even themselves 4/5 years ago. Of course that isn't the be all and end all of a "great team" but I do think it is the greatest era for one club since the turn of SL, and I include cup runs in that too, even though Leeds haven't had the best of luck there.
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#23 MrPosh

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:42 AM

It's difficult. I don't feel like this Leeds team is a great team and their regular season league performances suggest they're not.

However, a quick look in the record books shows that they indisputably are.
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#24 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 11:36 PM

I wouldn't say so. I think Leeds and many of their players have a lot of respect and admiration for what they do and how well they do their jobs at the business end. It is the fact that ,particulary the last two seasons , their achievement has been to "win" the end of season play off series rather than be what people percieve of as a "champion" team. There is a difference. Never before has a team deemed to be champions having lost 40% of their league matches. It seems to be perverse to many people. And it does stick in the craw to have to call such a team the best team, clearly they have not been for a majority of the season.

This might be more a reflection on the path the game has taken and the major failings of the current play off format rather than the Leeds club who could be said to be merely playing the system .

In addition this Leeds side has rarely been seen to come up with a performance of blowing another top side away with scintillating RL. Something the Saints , Wigan and Bradord sides could do with aplomb. They are masters of the gritty winning of close games but even mid table teams do not exactly fear them. It would be of great interest if they played an NRL club in mid to late season. For example i would happily wager had Leeds been playing the Storm in Sydney last week they would have struggled to trouble the scoreboard. Makes me a little sad to say that of our "champions".

Now were putting up a reasonable argument until you said "something Saints ,Wigan and bradford sides could do with aplomb" whatabou 2004?2005?and of course I refer you to the grand final of 2007 Leeds 33-Saints7?? maybe you should take another look at that game?you may call it a blow out.Ok 2007 to 2009 leeds and saints were by far the two best sides ,just like wigan in there period were out on there own..When you denigrate Leeds like this its like saying Wigan 2010 are probably the worst SL winners on account of thier style of play and the tactics they used.
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
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FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

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#25 Wolford6

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:31 AM

When does a team become a great team?




1. When they win major trophies ... Leeds have done this regularly in the Superleague era

2. When they are exciting to watch ... Leeds have done this previously in the Superleague era

3. When you have fears about playing them both at home and away ....Leeds have not offered this for at least four years in the Superleague era

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#26 slowdive

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:00 AM

Although people will always disagree however you measure it, the current play off system surely provides further room for uncertainty. Leeds winning twice from fifth does undermine the credibility of the current system. I'm not sure whether doing away with the playoffs is the right thing from a financial point of view but if you took money out of the equation, would we continue to have a playoff system?
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#27 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 01:36 PM

When does a team become a great team?




1. When they win major trophies ... Leeds have done this regularly in the Superleague era

2. When they are exciting to watch ... Leeds have done this previously in the Superleague era

3. When you have fears about playing them both at home and away ....Leeds have not offered this for at least four years in the Superleague era

When does a team become a great team?




1. When they win major trophies ... Leeds have done this regularly in the Superleague era

2. When they are exciting to watch ... Leeds have done this previously in the Superleague era

3. When you have fears about playing them both at home and away ....Leeds have not offered this for at least four years in the Superleague era

2009?
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#28 John Drake

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 02:26 PM

I don't get the argument that Leeds aren't that good a side because they didn't finish top and only won a handful of games at the end of the season to become Champions. The handful of games at the end of the season included three against teams that finished above them, including the team that finished top. If those teams were as good as they think they are based on their league placings, they should have had no difficulty whatsoever in dispatching the team that finished fifth, going on to Old Trafford and winning the title themselves. That they couldn't do that, even with home advantage in two of the three cases, suggests that the league table alone is actually not a foolproof way of demonstrating which is the best team in the land.

Several years ago, when it was either the first or second placed team that always got to Old Trafford and won the title, the argument went that the play-offs were a waste of time and/or boring because no team would ever win from outside the top two. Then Bradford won from third, now Leeds have won twice from fifth. But instead of accepting that the whole thing has got a little bit more exciting and unpredictable, the argument is changed to say that the play-offs are unfair because a team that finishes fifth can emerge victorious. Uh?

I was a sceptic when play-offs were re-introduced to decide the title in 1998, but I've been won over having attended so many great nights at Old Trafford since. It would be madness to walk away from all that in the dubious quest for 'fairness'. I don't write this as a Leeds fan. Far from it, I'm still smarting from Bradford's controversial defeat in 1999 when they finished top but lost to Saints, but that's sport and if you can't win at Old Trafford, then you really haven't proved that you are the best. Winning a succession of league games is only half the job. Doing that, then getting to Old Trafford, then holding your nerve to win in that pressure cooker environment is the true mark of a champion team. Love em or loathe em, that's exactly what Leeds are right now in my opinion.

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#29 slowdive

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 02:44 PM

Consider the Liverpool side that reached two Champions League Finals, winning one, without even being in the top three sides in England. If they had won both would they have been classed as a great team? I agree that the Grand Final is an amazing spectacle but it's hard to argue that winning it necessarily makes you the best team in the comp.
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#30 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 02:49 PM

I don't get the argument that Leeds aren't that good a side because they didn't finish top and only won a handful of games at the end of the season to become Champions. The handful of games at the end of the season included three against teams that finished above them, including the team that finished top. If those teams were as good as they think they are based on their league placings, they should have had no difficulty whatsoever in dispatching the team that finished fifth, going on to Old Trafford and winning the title themselves. That they couldn't do that, even with home advantage in two of the three cases, suggests that the league table alone is actually not a foolproof way of demonstrating which is the best team in the land.

Several years ago, when it was either the first or second placed team that always got to Old Trafford and won the title, the argument went that the play-offs were a waste of time and/or boring because no team would ever win from outside the top two. Then Bradford won from third, now Leeds have won twice from fifth. But instead of accepting that the whole thing has got a little bit more exciting and unpredictable, the argument is changed to say that the play-offs are unfair because a team that finishes fifth can emerge victorious. Uh?

I was a sceptic when play-offs were re-introduced to decide the title in 1998, but I've been won over having attended so many great nights at Old Trafford since. It would be madness to walk away from all that in the dubious quest for 'fairness'. I don't write this as a Leeds fan. Far from it, I'm still smarting from Bradford's controversial defeat in 1999 when they finished top but lost to Saints, but that's sport and if you can't win at Old Trafford, then you really haven't proved that you are the best. Winning a succession of league games is only half the job. Doing that, then getting to Old Trafford, then holding your nerve to win in that pressure cooker environment is the true mark of a champion team. Love em or loathe em, that's exactly what Leeds are right now in my opinion.

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#31 Amber Avenger

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 03:17 PM

This.


I also agree. Excellent post John.
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#32 Wolford6

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 03:34 PM

2009?


I can see where you are coming from, and maybe you are right. However, I think that 2009 and 2010 were both of very poor overall standard compared to the seasons before and since.

In 2009, Hull KR finished fourth, Wakefield finished fifth and Cas finished seventh; none of them were anything other than steady away. We finished ninth and were terrible; it was certainly much easier to beat us then rather than now, and we are still nothing special. Neither are Saints, who have generally been the benchmark.

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#33 gingerjon

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 03:38 PM

Consider the Liverpool side that reached two Champions League Finals, winning one, without even being in the top three sides in England. If they had won both would they have been classed as a great team? I agree that the Grand Final is an amazing spectacle but it's hard to argue that winning it necessarily makes you the best team in the comp.


I believe it's pretty well accepted that the 'best' soccerball teams in the world in 1974 and 1982 respectively were the Netherlands and Brazil, and that the 1970 England team were, on balance, better than the 1966 one.

But they didn't win the title so they aren't great.

It's not about being the best on paper, it's about getting your name on that trophy.

John Drake's posts says it all IMO.
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#34 slowdive

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:42 PM

I believe it's pretty well accepted that the 'best' soccerball teams in the world in 1974 and 1982 respectively were the Netherlands and Brazil, and that the 1970 England team were, on balance, better than the 1966 one.

But they didn't win the title so they aren't great.

It's not about being the best on paper, it's about getting your name on that trophy.

John Drake's posts says it all IMO.

I agree although I think it comes down to the overuse of the word 'great'. It's a bit like the word 'hero', which IMO is massively overused as well.
I suppose it comes down to semantics in a way. I totally agree that Leeds are a champion side. I actually attend more Leeds games than any other and I totally respect that team and the club as a whole although I'm not actually a Leeds supporter.
Great? Not for me, not yet anyway. They would need to dominate the competition more than they do over a longer period of time a la Wigan in the Eighties.
Champion side, with balls of steel? No doubt about it.
It's funny isn't it that Drake bloke is quite good at expressing himself. He should think about taking up writing for a living he might be quite good at it.
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#35 RSN

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:45 PM

They're a great team when you don't think they're going to lose. And when you hear that they've lost you are suprised. The Spain football team are an example of it now, no matter who they play you expect them to win and when they don't you're suprised. You have to achieve this form consistently to be considered a great team, which spain have done. Leeds I don't think they have, like at times this season I expected them to be beaten by Wakefield so I wouldn't class them as a great side.

#36 slowdive

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:48 PM

They're a great team when you don't think they're going to lose. And when you hear that they've lost you are suprised. The Spain football team are an example of it now, no matter who they play you expect them to win and when they don't you're suprised. You have to achieve this form consistently to be considered a great team, which spain have done. Leeds I don't think they have, like at times this season I expected them to be beaten by Wakefield so I wouldn't class them as a great side.

Agreed
"At times to be silent is to lie. You will win because you have enough brute force. But you will not convince. For to convince you need to persuade. And in order to persuade you would need what you lack: Reason and Right."

#37 slowdive

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:49 PM

They're a great team when you don't think they're going to lose. And when you hear that they've lost you are suprised. The Spain football team are an example of it now, no matter who they play you expect them to win and when they don't you're suprised. You have to achieve this form consistently to be considered a great team, which spain have done. Leeds I don't think they have, like at times this season I expected them to be beaten by Wakefield so I wouldn't class them as a great side.

That is probably the best post I've read on this topic.
"At times to be silent is to lie. You will win because you have enough brute force. But you will not convince. For to convince you need to persuade. And in order to persuade you would need what you lack: Reason and Right."

#38 flyingking

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:02 PM

They're a great team when you don't think they're going to lose a game that matters. And when you hear that they've lost you are suprised. The Spain football team are an example of it now, no matter who they play you expect them to win and when they don't you're suprised. You have to achieve this form consistently to be considered a great team, which spain have done. Leeds I don't think they have, like at times this season I expected them to be beaten by Wakefield so I wouldn't class them as a great side.

Spain lost to Switzerland in the 2010 World Cup, but still went on to be crowned champions. Leeds are definitely a great team in their ability to work for one another and in their big-game mindset, but may not be a great team when compared to other teams from times past and the present.
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#39 RSN

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:30 PM

Spain lost to Switzerland in the 2010 World Cup, but still went on to be crowned champions. Leeds are definitely a great team in their ability to work for one another and in their big-game mindset, but may not be a great team when compared to other teams from times past and the present.


I said 'think' though. How many people would of said switzerland too win that match, virtually none. For me great means great in all relevant aspects of the sport, which Leeds arnt.

#40 Steve May

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:38 AM

Leeds are clearly a very good side. But they are not a great team.

Great teams aren't about winning. Some great teams win nothing at all.

Great teams are about the way the game is played. Great teams come along and change the way people think about the game at a fundamental level.

In RL, the genuinely great teams have probably been Huddersfield in the 1910s, France in the 1950s, St George in the late 50s, Australia in 1982. Maybe a handful of others. Each of those sides left a mark on the game which lasted for decades.

Leeds are a very good side. They play the game very well indeed. But the game is not different in any significant way because of anything they have done. They are not a great side.

Given that almost all innovation in the game for the past forty years has come from Australia, it's difficult to argue that any English team of that period, including Wigan, has been truly great.

That's me.  I'm done.