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THE JIMMY SAVILLE THREAD


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#141 Northern Sol

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 11:06 AM

We can't know why Saville did charitable works: maybe it was to ease his conscience, maybe it was simply to gain opportunities to abuse, maybe it was just good publicity, maybe (unlikely) he actually thought that it was the right thing to do.

#142 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 11:21 AM

We can't know why Saville did charitable works: maybe it was to ease his conscience, maybe it was simply to gain opportunities to abuse, maybe it was just good publicity, maybe (unlikely) he actually thought that it was the right thing to do.

or a combination of all the above. IMHO
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#143 Steve May

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:25 PM

my maste was a fitter at Ackton Hall colliery. On his first day hee was roasted on the workshop fire.
If you are a female fresher at any given university in the UK the 'rights of passage' can be very distressing.
I went to UNi in the late 70s, nothing like this went on

http://www.independe...ek-8203400.html


Nothing like that went on in the mid 90s either. But we did have a pretty wild time, and I imagine you could easily have written stories that made out that things like that went on. There was a sluts and vicars party that I recall. Not tasteful, but we were all 19 for God's sake.

I do recall that freshers were considered fair game by both genders. One of my (male) friends hooked up early with a very attractive Rhodes scholar from Canada who was five years older and spent most of the next two terms in bed with her. I know for a fact that he looks back on those times very fondly. I also know for a fact that a number of women look back fondly on the tricks she taught him.

For a long time, the women in the college maintained a book containing a record of their sexual encounters, complete with grades for the chap's technique and ability. I've seen it, but wasn't allowed to read it. I am assured, by my wife, that no man has ever read it. Switch that around, make it the men marking the women and it could be construed to be deeply unpleasant. But it wasn't. It was just 20 years being daft.

One of the big problems here, it seems to me, is the definition of "unwanted sexual contact" It could include all sorts of things that range from genuinely disturbing events driven by misogyny that need dealing with swiftly and harshly, to the upsetting, but generally harmless, clumsiness of 18 year old boys who are still nervously working out how to approach women sexually, combined with 18 year old girls who are trying to do the same thing in the opposite direction.

The plain fact is, as people work this stuff out in their late teens and early twenties, there is going to be unwanted sexual contact from time to time and people are going to get upset about it. What matters is how far that goes before it stops and how much respect the people involved have for each other.

Having said all that, it is worth noting that in my time there were a couple of men whose behaviour in this area was generally regarded as unpleasant. They were largely ridiculed as I recall. One of them is now a somewhat infamous Tory MP.

That's me.  I'm done.


#144 Steve May

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:26 PM

I think the key is largely about power here. The women you mentioned had power in numbers. The men I think of had power in their positions in the workplace. Jimmy Savile had power in celebrity. The important factor here, IMO, is for the focus to be on ensuring that no matter how much power a person may have, they never have enough to be able to 'take liberties' without there being appropriate consequences and that those they are 'taking liberties' with, know they can ensure those consequences are brought about.


I absolutely agree with this.

That's me.  I'm done.


#145 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 01:07 PM

Nothing like that went on in the mid 90s either. But we did have a pretty wild time, and I imagine you could easily have written stories that made out that things like that went on. There was a sluts and vicars party that I recall. Not tasteful, but we were all 19 for God's sake.

I do recall that freshers were considered fair game by both genders. One of my (male) friends hooked up early with a very attractive Rhodes scholar from Canada who was five years older and spent most of the next two terms in bed with her. I know for a fact that he looks back on those times very fondly. I also know for a fact that a number of women look back fondly on the tricks she taught him.

For a long time, the women in the college maintained a book containing a record of their sexual encounters, complete with grades for the chap's technique and ability. I've seen it, but wasn't allowed to read it. I am assured, by my wife, that no man has ever read it. Switch that around, make it the men marking the women and it could be construed to be deeply unpleasant. But it wasn't. It was just 20 years being daft.

One of the big problems here, it seems to me, is the definition of "unwanted sexual contact" It could include all sorts of things that range from genuinely disturbing events driven by misogyny that need dealing with swiftly and harshly, to the upsetting, but generally harmless, clumsiness of 18 year old boys who are still nervously working out how to approach women sexually, combined with 18 year old girls who are trying to do the same thing in the opposite direction.

The plain fact is, as people work this stuff out in their late teens and early twenties, there is going to be unwanted sexual contact from time to time and people are going to get upset about it. What matters is how far that goes before it stops and how much respect the people involved have for each other.

Having said all that, it is worth noting that in my time there were a couple of men whose behaviour in this area was generally regarded as unpleasant. They were largely ridiculed as I recall. One of them is now a somewhat infamous Tory MP.

I spent my entire three years70-73 looking for love, finding it and then losing it again.
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#146 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 01:12 PM

Who?

he was quite a legend in the 50s and 60s and even the 40s I think.He used to present a childrens radio record request program on a saturday morning.Anyway a well know news correspondent has said it was common knowledge throughout the beeb that he was at it too.He called him uncle dick,but the CID dont have to be called in to know who he was referring to
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

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#147 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 01:15 PM

Internet gossip has it down to someone a bit younger.

Really!well if thats true I offer my posthumous apologies to uncle Mac
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#148 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 01:20 PM

That raises some interesting questions; was he driven to do all the good things he did out of good old fashioned catholic guilt, acknowledging deep down to himself that he wa a bad person? It also begs the question, in the light of what we know now what do we make of all his efforts for charity, do we dismiss them? Are they now unimportant? I supposed you'd have to ask all those who have benefitted over the years about that, but it is something of a quandary. It is somewhat reminiscent of the Dennis Potter play, "Brimstone and Treacle" which still messes with my head when i think about it. The play questions if something evil results in something good is it still evil. Saville seems a bit like this; extreme good and extreme bad at one and the same time.

Maybe it goes back the indulgencies they had in pre reformation times,where wealthy noblemen and land owners would build churches and donate land for monastries to be built,in order to buy grace fr themselves to get to heaven?

Edited by fieldofclothofgold, 18 October 2012 - 01:24 PM.

but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#149 Johnoco

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 01:23 PM

I spent my entire three years70-73 looking for love, finding it and then losing it again.


Isn't that a blues record?

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#150 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 01:25 PM

*And* he was a Catholic http://www.catholich...ing-daily-mass/

so was Henry VIII.FID DEF
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#151 JohnM

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 01:34 PM

"The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones."

Is Savile's charity work undone? Lance Armstrong's? Wilfred Bramble? BLT? John Peel? I am sure there are other examples,too Knowing what we know now, we have been better off without them.

However, I must have had a pretty boring school, college and working life as I have never imposed, suffered or witnessed an initiation ceremony, male or female sexual harassment and never been groped or touched up unwillingly or groped or touched anyone up uninvited, Of course I heard lots of stories - friends of friends -as it were but noe of then were ever substantiated.

#152 Johnoco

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 01:36 PM

What has a sandwich ever done?

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#153 Dave T

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:19 PM

What has a sandwich ever done?

:D

#154 JohnM

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:30 PM

Lettuce consider that for a moment in the hope I can save my bacon before I move on to matoes more important

#155 Hornetto

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:41 PM

Told today that Savile was photographed with Frank Bruno and Peter Sutcliffe. WTF?

Anyhoo, given that he also had an 'understanding' with Gary Glitter, we came up with this:

Posted Image

Posted Image
These Lads Can Run for 80 Minutes - the infamous Hornets fanzine is back from the dead: and just as biased as ever!
Match reports, previews and other stuff that comes into our heads at
http://theseladscanr...ns.blogspot.com


#156 Saintslass

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 07:00 PM

was he driven to do all the good things he did out of good old fashioned catholic guilt, acknowledging deep down to himself that he wa a bad person?

Could be. Or it could be that like everyone he was a mixture of darkness and light. It is perfectly possible that he did all his fundraising and gave the money he gave out of a genuine care for those he championed while at the same time indulging his darkness by exploiting those very same people. I don't think human beings ever really fit into the 'either/or' scenario. Or at least probably only sociopaths do.

It also begs the question, in the light of what we know now what do we make of all his efforts for charity, do we dismiss them? Are they now unimportant?

I don't think we can dismiss them really can we? He gave loads of his own money and raised loads of money from other people. He did an amazing job, especially for Stoke Mandeville. I feel sorry for the staff at that hospital actually because his name is very closely associated with their workplace and he had his own office there. The hospital also still has a sizeable chunk of trust fund money left from Savile's work which they say they are going to donate to work with those suffering from abuse but while that is obviously an extremely worthy cause I think they should keep it and use it for their spinal injuries work.

Edited by Saintslass, 18 October 2012 - 07:00 PM.


#157 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 07:25 PM

Maybe it goes back the indulgencies they had in pre reformation times,where wealthy noblemen and land owners would build churches and donate land for monastries to be built,in order to buy grace fr themselves to get to heaven?

and before
remembeer the pardoner's tale?
The RC Church built a alot of its wealth on selling forgiveness.
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#158 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 07:46 PM

and before
remembeer the pardoner's tale?
The RC Church built a alot of its wealth on selling forgiveness.

Yes of course,I think they called them indulgences
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#159 longboard

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 09:30 PM

and before
remembeer the pardoner's tale?
The RC Church built a alot of its wealth on selling forgiveness.

Yes of course,I think they called them indulgences


Strictly speaking indulgences come after repentance and forgiveness. An indulgence does not represent forgiveness in the sacrament of confession, rather it is extra-sacramental and is related to the temporal punishments, or penances, that follow confession and forgiveness. They became an alternative to the tough punishments associated with the church.

Chaucer comments quite cynically on the abuse of indulgences. These abuses were one of the grievances against the church that Luther et al listed.

#160 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 07:35 AM

Strictly speaking indulgences come after repentance and forgiveness. An indulgence does not represent forgiveness in the sacrament of confession, rather it is extra-sacramental and is related to the temporal punishments, or penances, that follow confession and forgiveness. They became an alternative to the tough punishments associated with the church.

Chaucer comments quite cynically on the abuse of indulgences. These abuses were one of the grievances against the church that Luther et al listed.


aye
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