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Toulouse Olympique get go ahead for stadium upgrade


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#21 Exiled Wiganer

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 01:32 PM

Something went wrong with my second point (bloody blackberry) - it was that Saints used to lose 7 fig sums year after year but their owners were able and willing to absorb them.

#22 oiseau

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 01:55 PM

Oiseau,

What's been a done deal? Are you saying Toulouse are (unofficially) certainties for Superleague??

I acknowledge Winnyasons point that not only may TO offer a club with plenty of money, but they may deliver a second source of TV money.

As for you comment on "18 clubs" & "look at the NRL" I do trust that was tongue in cheek.

On an £8,000,000 annual operating loss the first thing Superleague needs is a new rich club (TO?)

A French TV contract to satisfy the needs of Les Cats and TO.

And the sharing of SKY money between 10 English clubs who can compete in SL.

Along with the £100K a year savings by "using" championship clubs as "A" teams i reckon the Superleague is set to cut it's annual operating losses by several millions.

If certain SL clubs don't get out of the "fine mess" they are in they'll be cut too.


"What's been a done deal? Are you saying Toulouse are (unofficially) certainties for Superleague??"

Yes

"I acknowledge Winnyasons point that not only may TO offer a club with plenty of money, but they may deliver a second source of TV money."

that's up to TO13 to negotiate with a tv company

"As for you comment on "18 clubs" & "look at the NRL" I do trust that was tongue in cheek."

work it out - 16 teams in the NRL and 2' games played

"On an £8,000,000 annual operating loss the first thing Superleague needs is a new rich club (TO?)"

not a rich club but maybe a well run and efficient outfit which can sustain their SL status - it's a big gamble just like for any other club

"A French TV contract to satisfy the needs of Les Cats and TO."

they need to negotiate but Sky will probably be obliged to screen two Super League games just like the Catalans

"And the sharing of SKY money between 10 English clubs who can compete in SL."

and no SKY money for the french clubs ? you're 'avin a larf Parky ?

"Along with the £100K a year savings by "using" championship clubs as "A" teams i reckon the Superleague is set to cut it's annual operating losses by several millions."

sorry, you've lost me there

"If certain SL clubs don't get out of the "fine mess" they are in they'll be cut too."

thought most clubs were in the doo doo ? Toulouse is a rich city so at least the club has a chance

#23 The Parksider

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:05 PM

"And the sharing of SKY money between 10 English clubs who can compete in SL."

and no SKY money for the french clubs ? you're 'avin a larf Parky ?

"If certain SL clubs don't get out of the "fine mess" they are in they'll be cut too."

thought most clubs were in the doo doo ? Toulouse is a rich city so at least the club has a chance


Toulouse IN 2015 I heard it here first.

I don't think most clubs are in the doo doo. There are out of the 14 clubs in Super league eleven who are not displaying any great distress and the common denominator is they all have a wealthy backer (except Bradford who have friends in high places)
Three clubs openly are saying they are deep in doo doo.

SKY money is TV money. If France adds to the TV money then would that not share out evenly across the board? I only assumed that the French clubs could get their own TV money leaving the English to share theirs - as long as it's even??

#24 keighley

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:26 PM

In theory this should be great news and indeed it could be. But, as always, the devil is in the details. If they let in Toulouse and a championship club as they promised, who is out?. If they reduce to 10 teams, who is out.? Where do all these ejected clubs play.? The Championships will be a glorified A team league. Do you really want to ditch Castleford, Hull KR, Huddersfield, a tottering Bradford, maybe London or Widnes from our competiton.? If you reduce to 10 and add Toulouse and a CC club you need to get rid of 6 present SL incumbents.

If you add Toulouse and a CC club and don't go down to 10 or 12, that will be a 15 team league. If the expected extra TV money from French TV or even a better deal from Sky materialises, then this will be possible.

As I said, the devil is in the details. The RFL/SLE are running the game as their own private fiefdom for their own ends and letting no one in on the plans.



#25 oiseau

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 03:21 PM

Toulouse IN 2015 I heard it here first.

I don't think most clubs are in the doo doo. There are out of the 14 clubs in Super league eleven who are not displaying any great distress and the common denominator is they all have a wealthy backer (except Bradford who have friends in high places)
Three clubs openly are saying they are deep in doo doo.

SKY money is TV money. If France adds to the TV money then would that not share out evenly across the board? I only assumed that the French clubs could get their own TV money leaving the English to share theirs - as long as it's even??


nah, I posted the same news last year

good to hear the majority of RL clubs are fine & healthy

no idea on TV money - I assume the french clubs will receive SKY money as Catalans have always done (haven't they ?)

I reckon the long term RFL plan is to copy the NRL - who knows ?

#26 Exiled Wiganer

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 03:25 PM

In a sense, if we move to a 12 team SL, and that includes TO, the game will have to find a way to accommodate a lot of very strong and traditional clubs outside SL, which could if done properly be to the benefit of the game. Take Fev, Leigh and Fax - each of these has won major trophies in my time watching the game, and each of them has produced some wonderful players. If we had a 10 team SL1 and a 10 team SL2, with each club playing each other team in their division twice, and playing once against each team in the other league we would have 27 games, and the prospect of making the most of a lot of the game's hotbeds.
If we divvy up the TV money such that, say, SL2 teams get half the allowance for SL1, we could have the best of all worlds.

#27 Scubby

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 05:46 PM

oh I see, that was supposed to be sarcastic ?

what do you really feel about TO13 playing in SL then ?

are you all for getting more money into the game or you don't care as long as it's not those nasty froggies ?



erhh yes Parky, someone does indeed 'know something' - it's been a done deal for the past year - the major
hurdle was getting the city council to help fund the project - the RFL was a pushover



you don't have to play each other twice in the SL season ! Look at the NRL


I would have Toulose in SL in a heartbeat. They should fast track the green light and agree to Toulouse being in for 2015. Give them 2 full years to plan to come into the squad. For those worried about French talent, 2 years prep will give them the opportunity put give out some full time contracts to promising players. Those players sloshing around Catalans without getting much game time (Stacul, Simon, Baille etc.) would have another outlet.

I was so disillusioned by the Championship episode. It was basically the RFL bottling it. Toulouse were always going to struggle. Would you work full-time and travel away to France to play every other week? Morale must have been low and it served no purpose. Having Toulouse in SL is not compromising British clubs it is complimenting them. It could also lead to a French TV deal.

Toulouse v Catalans derbies could draw 15,000 plus (not that there are that many RL fans in France. CM). It could transform the game and how it is perceived over there.

#28 foozler

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 08:31 PM

A few things on this:
- let's get them in. They're such a glamourous name, and the potential upside is so great that that outweighs the usual risks for me;
- the 8m loss is a meaningless figure. Saints regul s absorbed the losses. 10 pounds loss is too much if you cannot pay it. 10 million isn't if you can;
- if we had 18 teams not playing each other then the argument in favour of the GF winner being the "best" team would be stronger, and help assuage the wide spread discontent this year;
- having Toulouse in a 14 team comp could potentially increase the competition for English players, while exposing more French players to SL, thus leading to clear benefits for both internationally; and
- I know it won't happen, but I would love to see T O in a 2 tier SL with 10 teams in each.


Would it need to be a 2 tier SL? Could you just not have a 20 team Superleague split in two pools/ divisions/ whatever you want to call them, with the eventual winners of each pool going forward to contest the Grand Final?

#29 The Daddy_merged

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 08:44 PM

Another point to consider is assuming Toulouse do make it to SL, would clubs stay in France and play Cats and Toulouse one after another? Over a two week period. Clubs could probably base themselves in Aude which is halfway between both places and do training camps in between games.

#30 winnyason

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 01:46 AM

Yeah I think if they are in give them the light in 12 months, Robinson gave plenty of fringe players confidence to perform, the likes of stacul, baile, gossard, Simon are sl standard along with say massolot and quintella already at toulouse. Also young ben Garcia at nrl under 20's is another. Avignon and villenvue are hotbeds for rl talent toulouse should link up ties with these clubs. Griffi, saudoni and the bentley boys could also be SL standard. Barthau is could also be looked at, but longterm he is the playmaker at catalans post dureau/bosc. The first year will be a struggle ask widnes, crusaders, catalans.

#31 Jim from Oz

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 05:29 AM

What will be the capacity of the new improved ground?

And if Toulouse are in for sure for 2015, and they are going to start developing juniors now???

#32 gnidir

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:32 AM

Why don't we just expand into conferences, play say, 5 games, then split to table into grade a and grade b. ou would play home and away in your group, and a number of cross grade games to get the required revenue.
We could bring back the regal trophy and play for it like the ranfurly shield in the itm cup in nz, you have to beat te holder at thier home ground to take it, you then hold it until beaten. It gets some great crowds for games and gives something else to play for.
Grade a and b teams contest the playoffs with only one grand final winner.

#33 oiseau

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:17 AM

Another point to consider is assuming Toulouse do make it to SL, would clubs stay in France and play Cats and Toulouse one after another? Over a two week period. Clubs could probably base themselves in Aude which is halfway between both places and do training camps in between games.


arranging fixtures as you describe would be practical with training camps in between games though the camps could be anywhere in the area from Montpellier to Bordeaux - travelling times are relatively short due to the excellent road system so Perpignan - Toulouse is only a couple of hours drive for example

I know many of the championship clubs visiting Toulouse during the TO13 experiment in the Championship used the TO13 game as an excellent coaching/bonding camp for their players & staff

#34 The Daddy_merged

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:21 AM

Yeah I think if they are in give them the light in 12 months, Robinson gave plenty of fringe players confidence to perform, the likes of stacul, baile, gossard, Simon are sl standard along with say massolot and quintella already at toulouse. Also young ben Garcia at nrl under 20's is another. Avignon and villenvue are hotbeds for rl talent toulouse should link up ties with these clubs. Griffi, saudoni and the bentley boys could also be SL standard. Barthau is could also be looked at, but longterm he is the playmaker at catalans post dureau/bosc. The first year will be a struggle ask widnes, crusaders, catalans.


Let's not forget there is also Remy Marginet and a few other youngsters in the elite who could play SL level.

#35 oiseau

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:36 AM

What will be the capacity of the new improved ground?

And if Toulouse are in for sure for 2015, and they are going to start developing juniors now???


the eventual capacity at Stade Arnauné (Les Minimes) will be 10000 but Toulouse Olympique have an agreement with Stade Toulousain just down the road to stage games when a larger capacity is expected - TO13 had a similar agreement with another stadium not far away when bigger crowds were expected for some Championship games ie: Widnes

Toulouse have had an Academy for years and many youngsters have progressed to the Catalans first team either directly or via UTC - the two clubs work closely together and have an excellent rapport

#36 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:02 AM

Are there plans to extend the stadium after that? 10,000 is a little low for a SL club, although you do have other options for bigger games. I suppose it's a similar route to Catalans with Gilbert Brutus.
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#37 oiseau

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 01:35 PM

Are there plans to extend the stadium after that? 10,000 is a little low for a SL club, although you do have other options for bigger games. I suppose it's a similar route to Catalans with Gilbert Brutus.


the only option after the present two-stage plan would be to redevelop the present clubhouse area which would probably add a furthertwo or three thousand though that's just a 'guesstimate'
Carlos Z is expecting to have initial crowds of between 5 - 8 K so the 10 K capacity wouldn't be a major problem

#38 keighley

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 02:28 PM

the only option after the present two-stage plan would be to redevelop the present clubhouse area which would probably add a furthertwo or three thousand though that's just a 'guesstimate'
Carlos Z is expecting to have initial crowds of between 5 - 8 K so the 10 K capacity wouldn't be a major problem


But I thought the conventional wisdom on these boards was that a SL club was impossible to operate on less than a 10,000 average, never mind one that has to travel to the UK every second week. I am not knocking Toulouse, I am sure they have done the math but the rabid opposition to clubs in the UK who can't hit the 10,000 average vis a vis the support for the Toulouse application smacks of double standards.

#39 Scubby

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 02:37 PM

But I thought the conventional wisdom on these boards was that a SL club was impossible to operate on less than a 10,000 average, never mind one that has to travel to the UK every second week. I am not knocking Toulouse, I am sure they have done the math but the rabid opposition to clubs in the UK who can't hit the 10,000 average vis a vis the support for the Toulouse application smacks of double standards.

Catalans averaged around 6k in their first season (2006) and now average 9-10k per game. HTH Toulouse is much bigger (potentially) than Perpignan.

#40 oiseau

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 02:50 PM

But I thought the conventional wisdom on these boards was that a SL club was impossible to operate on less than a 10,000 average, never mind one that has to travel to the UK every second week. I am not knocking Toulouse, I am sure they have done the math but the rabid opposition to clubs in the UK who can't hit the 10,000 average vis a vis the support for the Toulouse application smacks of double standards.


I don't know if Toulouse going into SL is a good or bad thing - there are pros and cons but the one big advantage the RFL may be considering is the fact that Toulouse would not be reliant on one main sugar daddy like at London,Wakey or Widnes et al - the majority of the running costs would be borne by sponsors & tv money - Toulouse is a relatively rich city compared to the likes of Perpignan with loadsamoney in the pipeline though similar on-field success like the Catalans would be required to attract the fans on a regular basis - the word 'potential' keeps cropping up but it's easy to talk a good game...