101 replies to this topic

[barrowraiderskid]

That is just a ridiculous statement to make. I may be a Saints fan but I don't kiss the feet of my club. I'm well aware of good points and bad points at Saints. However, this is a partnership, not a take over and Rochdale was not obliged to enter it and they don't have to remain a part of it. I'm quite sure that if they don't like it they will pull out.

What so your assuming Saints entered this too benefit Rochdale or try and save 100k a year? I'd say the latter. Unfortunately in this day and age a lot of decisions are based on finance, and Saints will do whatever they can to make money.

[slowdive]

I wonder whether some of the criticisms here are based more on a touch of jealousy that it wasn't their club that has benefited from this arrangement.
Rochdale are not currently even challenging at the top end of Championship 1 and get fairly small crowds, so they're a million miles from Super League as things stand. But, if Saints want to do this properly presumably they will want their young players to have to earn their place in the Rochdale side. This will be good experience for those players but will also raise the bar amongst the Rochdale squad. Isn't that a good thing for the players, the club and the competition?

[roughyedspud]

I wonder whether some of the criticisms here are based more on a touch of jealousy that it wasn't their club that has benefited from this arrangement.

absolutely not........lol

Edited by roughyedspud, 11 October 2012 - 09:43 PM.

[Saintslass]

Ok but what if three of the first five turn out to be cracking prospects that only leaves room for a couple of new players in year two.

If they're cracking prospects then either Saints will play them in the first team or they will get jobs elsewhere in either the Championships or Superleague. Such things as this will have been thrashed out by the clubs and/or will be predetermined by the RFL when they created this system.

What concerns me about all this is that it exists at all. I wonder whether this is financially motivated - in which case we all should be concerned (doesn't say much about the state of our sport) - or whether (as is widely acknowledged) the u20s was perceived as a failed system and this was the best option available for bringing young players through. Apparently most clubs - from across the leagues - agreed with implementing the system.

[Saintslass]

What so your assuming Saints entered this too benefit Rochdale or try and save 100k a year? I'd say the latter. Unfortunately in this day and age a lot of decisions are based on finance, and Saints will do whatever they can to make money.

No, what I was saying was that I'm not a one-eyed Saints fan: I can see the good and bad in my club but even bearing that in mind I don't believe Saints view Rochdale as a feeder club. To add to that, I don't think Rochdale will have allowed themselves to get into a position of becoming one either. They didn't have to agree to this partnership.

I do agree though that Saints will always aim to make money. On that we can all be 100% certain! We have a big banker in charge so I would expect nothing else.

[The Art of Hand and Foot]

I am a little concerned that Chris Hamilton is reported to be in tlaks with a 'Super League' club with a view to going down the same route as the Hornets.

I want to watch players who want to put on the the Oldham shirt, Players who feel pride in the club, who will go that extra mile for Oldham.

Not players who who's raison detre' is to play just to get into the Saints first team squad.

The main problem as always is money, or lack of it.

[roughyedspud]

talks have been called off apparently........

[Dave T]

So Rochdale will have six Saints players next season. What about the season after if Saints have another crop of promising players? And then the following seasons. Where will all the players end up if Rochdale can only field six?

Saints will either find space for them in their team (19's or First Team), dual reg them with Rochdale or Whitehaven, loan them to another club, or release them. Pretty much exactly the same options that are open already, what was your point.

[Dave T]

I am a little concerned that Chris Hamilton is reported to be in tlaks with a 'Super League' club with a view to going down the same route as the Hornets.

I want to watch players who want to put on the the Oldham shirt, Players who feel pride in the club, who will go that extra mile for Oldham.

Not players who who's raison detre' is to play just to get into the Saints first team squad.

The main problem as always is money, or lack of it.

That doesn't happen at the moment to be fair. Players sign for clubs to make a name for themselves or for the money they can earn.

There is little real loyalty anyway. This won't change that.

[saints10coach]

If your club was going to go into one of these feeder club agreements. You would be pleased that you had paired up with one of the top 4 teams, renown for producing good youngsters. However as an Oldham fan, I am typing with fingers crossed hoping we do not go into a similar agreement with any other club.

[Keith T]

Scenario 1: A club is close to the salary cap limit and runs in to a player shortage through injuries. They go out and genuinely sign another player which pushes them over the salary cap limit. They would be probably fined and lose points.

Scenario 2: A club close to the salary cap limit runs in to a shortage of players through injuries. They are linked to a SL club who send along one of their star players returning after injury to get game time. This players is on a massive salary which although being paid by the SL club does give a big advantage to the Championship club and with no fine or penalty points incurred.

That can't be right surely?

[Terry Mullaney]

Saints will either find space for them in their team (19's or First Team), dual reg them with Rochdale or Whitehaven, loan them to another club, or release them. Pretty much exactly the same options that are open already, what was your point.

My point is that five places just won't be enough after the first season if, say, three of those players shine but aren't ready for the Saints 1st team. What happens in years two and three with further young players becoming available? Where will they move them all to and what if CC clubs can't take them because theirDR quota's full. Saints won't want to cross off players with potential will they? Three years from now five DR players will inevitably become an unlimited number in my opinion. If that happens will we still be able to say that Rochdale and the rest aren't feeder clubs?

Edited by Terry Mullaney, 12 October 2012 - 05:03 PM.

[Griff]

One of the problems with dual reg is that supporters can't build up any sort of affinity with the player.

Another is that the coach can't be sure what players will be available each week.

[roughyedspud]

i think the idea is terry that the 5 or 8 players that go to rochdale will spend a season there then progress onto whitehaven the next..then the st helens 1st team the season...there'll be a continually conveyor belt of player movement....if these players don't make the grade they'll be released...


and yes we'll still be able to call them feeder clubs

[shaun mc]

There are more holes in this arrangement regarding the Championship salary cap regulations than a colander. Unless its all been explained and we've missed it but the clubs know what they can and can't do.
As it stands the scenario Keith T painted which would entirely plausible, makes a mockery of any salary cap and it may as well be scrapped. However, that not be suitable either.
Do the clubs in the CC earn any cash fro either winning the league or finishing in 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc? If so, that creates more problems where 1 club has more dual reg/fringe SL players than another.

[Terry Mullaney]

There are more holes in this arrangement regarding the Championship salary cap regulations than a colander. Unless its all been explained and we've missed it but the clubs know what they can and can't do.
As it stands the scenario Keith T painted which would entirely plausible, makes a mockery of any salary cap and it may as well be scrapped. However, that not be suitable either.
Do the clubs in the CC earn any cash fro either winning the league or finishing in 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc? If so, that creates more problems where 1 club has more dual reg/fringe SL players than another.

Entirely right. The integrity of the Championship as a good and fair competition is shot to pieces. It will all end in tears.

[boro hornet]

At the end of the day every club had the option to go down this road and it is up to them if they do or not,the RFL must have given guidelines to what can and cannot be done.
I have never been a fan of duel registration and would rather have longer term loan deals but the other things that are being made available to Hornets can only be a good thing.
I will wait to see what the full details are but it seems there are more pros than there are cons,so I will still be behind my club what ever happens.
Cant wait for next season to start.

[mark richardson]

We (Barrow) have done it the correct way. We've bought the likes of Brennan (19) Haggerty (23) Clay (21) Jones (19) Wiper (21) and will have them available every week and their development will benefit us and us solely. Blended in with our own local talent we will be sustainable by ourselves and won't need an SL club to keep us going.

The Saints players available will be the first names on the team sheet, as that will benefit the Saints the most. This will likely lead to Rochdale players getting annoyed as they arnt getting a game and will likely leave. Plus if Rochdale uncovered a good player he would move to Saints for peanuts (unlike Gardner from us to Saints a decade or so ago when we did receive money which benfited the club.) Again this will benefit Saints not Rochdale as I can't imagine Rochdale fans being happy seeing one of their local players moving away from the club to go play for Haven and then too Saints and with Rochdale getting nothing.

The move may help rochdale for the short term future yes I agree, but for helping them sustain as an independant club for decades to come this is a bad move. The move is too benefit Saints short and long term, yes it may reap some rewards for rochdale in the coming seasons, but it won't help them long term.

Barrow have done things the right way!? That's a confident statement in light of your recent successes and failures
Des Johnston bought a team and you had success that was based on rule breaking
Last year and the year before you benefited from numerous dr players.
Now you have signed several young lads who werent quite ready for super league. The very same type of player who may have benefited from this type of arrangement.
I don't know whether dr team link ups will work but using any rugby league team as an example of how things should be done is always a bad idea.
I say give it a go. I think it might be Rochdales saviour.

[keighley]

Barrow have done things the right way!? That's a confident statement in light of your recent successes and failures
Des Johnston bought a team and you had success that was based on rule breaking
Last year and the year before you benefited from numerous dr players.
Now you have signed several young lads who werent quite ready for super league. The very same type of player who may have benefited from this type of arrangement.
I don't know whether dr team link ups will work but using any rugby league team as an example of how things should be done is always a bad idea.
I say give it a go. I think it might be Rochdales saviour.

You are right but, if there was not the rule breaking and Johnston was still there with his cash and Barrow were signing these players, who will not have their premier allegiance to some SL club, and had continued growing their crowds as a result,Surely that would be better than being some SL team's reserve side nursery. They might have just got to the point where the long wished for Cumbrian SL place was in their sights. That's not going to ever happen with any of these parasitic A teams concoctions that are currently being cooked up to save SL clubs money. Their fate is sealed. Mediocrity forever.

[Saintslass]

You are right but, if there was not the rule breaking and Johnston was still there with his cash and Barrow were signing these players, who will not have their premier allegiance to some SL club, and had continued growing their crowds as a result,Surely that would be better than being some SL team's reserve side nursery. They might have just got to the point where the long wished for Cumbrian SL place was in their sights. That's not going to ever happen with any of these parasitic A teams concoctions that are currently being cooked up to save SL clubs money. Their fate is sealed. Mediocrity forever.

Thing is though, it didn't happen like that.