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Votes at 16


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20 replies to this topic

#1 John Drake

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:41 PM

It seems that after a bit of wrangling between Alex Salmond and the UK government, 16 year olds will now be allowed to vote in the referendum on Scottish independence. How long before that's extended to other elections, I wonder?

I was in full-time employment at 16, paying tax on my earnings. Taxation without representation! :o

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#2 gingerjon

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 03:46 PM

Given that, as you say, you can do pretty much everything else aged 16 you should be allowed to vote.
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#3 Northern Sol

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 03:48 PM

They shouldn't have given into Salmond. He's only in favour because 16-17 years are more likely to vote his way. I daresay he'd extend the vote to Highland cattle if he could.

That said if you are old enough to work and pay taxes then you should be able to vote. This should be across the board not just as one-off.

#4 Methven Hornet

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:05 PM

They shouldn't have given into Salmond. He's only in favour because 16-17 years are more likely to vote his way. I daresay he'd extend the vote to Highland cattle if he could.

That said if you are old enough to work and pay taxes then you should be able to vote. This should be across the board not just as one-off.


Any evidence for your assertion? The only survey results I've seen suggest that the Lib Dems do better, relatively, from this age group.
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#5 Methven Hornet

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:48 PM

It seems that after a bit of wrangling between Alex Salmond and the UK government, 16 year olds will now be allowed to vote in the referendum on Scottish independence. How long before that's extended to other elections, I wonder?

I was in full-time employment at 16, paying tax on my earnings. Taxation without representation! :o


Strictly speaking, 16 and 17 year olds will be able to vote in the referendum if the Scottish Parliament decides they should. The issue was one that was put out to public consultation, so I assume both the Scottish Government and Holyrood as a whole will look at the views of the 26,000 who responded. Off the top of my head I think three parties (SNP, Lib Dems and Labour) support the idea of 16 and 17 year olds being given the right to vote.

My personal opinion is that it would be a good thing in general if the franchise was extended to this particular age group, certainly in Scotland. Sixteen is the age of legal capacity here, the age at which someone can get married (without parental permission, in fact), and age at which compulsory education stops. Surely 16 is a better time to cement the idea of the responsibility of voting when the issues discussed in "Civics" classes are still fresh in the mind.

I have always found that sixteen year olds are as capable of understanding political issues as any other age group. They are certainly capable of understanding fundamental principles such as statehood, which is what the upcoming referendum will be concerned with, so it is right that they should be consulted,

Whether extending the franchise will happen for elections under Westminster's control is another matter. We all know that institution's track record when it comes to constitutional reform. How is introducing democracy to the House of Lords coming along?
"There are now more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs."

#6 Northern Sol

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 05:11 PM

Any evidence for your assertion? The only survey results I've seen suggest that the Lib Dems do better, relatively, from this age group.


The vote isn't on which party should govern Scotland, it is on whether Scotland should be independent, young Scots are more likely to vote for independence than older ones.

It's just like the whole Devo Max issue, Salmond trying to rig the vote by turning a yes / no referendum into a three way vote.

#7 Northern Sol

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 05:18 PM

http://www.dailymail...ow-Salmond.html

Though interestingly this particular survey puts teenage support for independence slightly below adult support, it does back my assertion that traditionally teenagers have been rather more nationalist than the Scottish norm. Hence Salmond's desire to have them vote in the referendum.

#8 Northern Sol

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 06:14 PM

http://www.dailywhat...dependence.aspx

This is rather more typical.

#9 Marauder

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 07:14 PM

I can see Xbox getting voted in.
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#10 Marauder

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 07:16 PM

Will all the sweaty socks living all over the world get the chance to vote?
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#11 Methven Hornet

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 07:50 PM

The vote isn't on which party should govern Scotland, it is on whether Scotland should be independent,

True, but it does point to this age group not particularly leaning towards independence, or parties that propose independence, in comparison to other, older age groups.

young Scots are more likely to vote for independence than older ones.

Apparently not, as you go on to illustrate...

It's just like the whole Devo Max issue, Salmond trying to rig the vote by turning a yes / no referendum into a three way vote.

A bit O/T, but votes for 16 and 17 year olds is nothing like the Devo Max issue. And there never was a proposal to turn the referendum into a three way vote, even if someone had come forward with a workable proposal for further devolution; is that what the Daily Mail has been saying?

http://www.dailymail...ow-Salmond.html

Though interestingly this particular survey puts teenage support for independence slightly below adult support,

Exactly what I've been getting at! (warning: this poll doesn't appear to have been carried out by a reputable polling organisation; any 'poll' carried out by the Daily Mail should be viewed with caution)

it does back my assertion that traditionally teenagers have been rather more nationalist than the Scottish norm. Hence Salmond's desire to have them vote in the referendum.

Er, no it doesn't.

"Polling expert Professor John Curtice said: ‘This shows the assumptions made by some that younger voters tend towards independence is some way out.'"

Professor Curtice is talking about you!

http://www.dailywhat...dependence.aspx

This is rather more typical.


You truly are all over the place on this one. The article you post does not mention the political opinions or the voting intentions of 16 or 17 year olds - the subject of the thread - at all! :lol:
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#12 Methven Hornet

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 07:51 PM

I can see Xbox getting voted in.


Nah, from what I can gather PS3 have won a landslide!
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#13 Methven Hornet

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 07:52 PM

Will all the sweaty socks living all over the world get the chance to vote?


Only if they are 16 or 17 year old Lib Dem supporters.
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#14 Methven Hornet

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 07:58 PM

Oh, and while we've been on air the Holyrood and Westminster governments seem to have reached agreement on the referendum arrangements (subject to discussion and agreement between the First Minister and the Prime Minister on Monday).

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-19928013

So, back to the thread subject - subject to Holyrood's approval, we may be about to see the first occasion where 16 and 17 year olds can vote.
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#15 Northern Sol

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 09:59 PM

True, but it does point to this age group not particularly leaning towards independence, or parties that propose independence, in comparison to other, older age groups.


Apparently not, as you go on to illustrate...


A bit O/T, but votes for 16 and 17 year olds is nothing like the Devo Max issue. And there never was a proposal to turn the referendum into a three way vote, even if someone had come forward with a workable proposal for further devolution; is that what the Daily Mail has been saying?


Exactly what I've been getting at! (warning: this poll doesn't appear to have been carried out by a reputable polling organisation; any 'poll' carried out by the Daily Mail should be viewed with caution)


Er, no it doesn't.

"Polling expert Professor John Curtice said: ‘This shows the assumptions made by some that younger voters tend towards independence is some way out.'"

Professor Curtice is talking about you!



You truly are all over the place on this one. The article you post does not mention the political opinions or the voting intentions of 16 or 17 year olds - the subject of the thread - at all! :lol:


Funnily enough that might be because 16-17 year olds don't get a vote and so nobody bothers to do proper opinion polls with them. However, the second link I supplied shows that 18-24 years olds are massively more in favour of independence than any other age group; I can't imagine why Salmond was in favour of allowing more teenagers to vote.

The Devo Max option was just another way of trying to skew the result. Which other referendum on independence anywhere in the world included a third option? These kinds of referenda are binary for a good reason.

Basically the SNP would have been better off if they had formed another minority government that way they wouldn't have had to call a referendum (since the Tories, Libs and Labour would never allow it). There isn't the remotest chance of an SNP win particularly in the present economic climate and this vote will settle the issue for a generation.

Perhaps Professor Curtice might like to read this:-

When questioned, 51% of people aged 18 to 24 said they would back Scotland breaking away from the rest of the UK, with 36% against.

Those aged 25 to 34 were in favour by 40%, with 36% against.

As the age increased to 35 to 44, 38% were in favour and 36% against.

The majority of older voters were against independence. Those over the age of 65 voted 57% against independence and 28% in favour.


Edited by Northern Sol, 12 October 2012 - 10:03 PM.


#16 Northern Sol

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 10:38 PM

And as for "polls carried out by the Daily Mail shouldn't be believed" - it was a MORI poll http://www.ipsos-mor...dependence.aspx

As ever you just assume what is convenient.

#17 gingerjon

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:01 PM

The vote will go ahead in 2014 with 16 and 17 year olds allowed to join the fun.
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#18 RidingPie

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:07 PM

Question is do the torys really want us to remain as 'one nation'?

Personally I don't think they do (in spite of what they say). Imagine how much easier it would be for them to win a majority with 60 MP's removed (none of whom are currently conservative).

#19 Wolford6

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:41 PM

I've had a few sixteen and seventeen year-olds do part-time clerical work for me over the past few years. I reckon George Galloway is the only MP they could name and even then not be sure which party he represents.

They'd vote for whichever party promised to enforce a standard price for Jagerbombs.

Edited by Wolford6, 15 October 2012 - 07:15 PM.

Under Scrutiny by the Right-On Thought Police


#20 Amber Avenger

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:02 PM

I've met many 26 year olds who couldn't even name Galloway, and yet I've met some 16 year olds who have active interests in politics at local and national level. I don't think it's an age problem, it's a social one.
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