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SL / Championship "Partnerships"


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222 replies to this topic

#101 frankb

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:57 PM

Dress it up anyway you like but you are now Bradfords feeder club, think i will give your ground a miss next year, likewise Leigh they can call it what they want they are Wigans feeder club


Ok you have your opinion and you like everyone else is entitled to that.

I suggest you will be proved right or wrong when our respective sides next play at which time you will be able to count the contracted Leigh players in our side.

I personally detest this feeder club idea so for the moment' as regards the side I support' I will leave it at that.

#102 sidnee

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:04 PM

He's bent even when he hasn't been on the beer :o
The weak conform, the strong survive.

#103 Robin Evans

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:07 PM

Julian clarey looks straighter than suggy when he's been on t'pop!!!
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#104 frankb

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:39 PM

He's bent even when he hasn't been on the beer :o


Well you Know Lowfield better than I do. :D

#105 LOWFIELD

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 06:16 PM

Isnt homophobic abuse against forum rules?

#106 Robin Evans

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 06:21 PM

Yes
"I love our club, absolutely love it". (Overton, M 2007)

#107 Tom Coates

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:10 PM

Dewsbury finished top of the league two seasons in a row around the turn of the century, we won the Grand Final, the Trans-Pennine Cup and we've earned promotion from Championship 1 twice. We even won every game one year! So to say that we're a club that's happy just to plod along is unfair.

Our track record in recent years clearly suggests otherwise, though our efforts in 1999 and 2000 were not rewarded with a spot in Super League, and since then our prospects of achieving promotion to the top level have faded by the year, due mainly to factors outside of our control.

Featherstone, meanwhile, have benefited from the financial backing and enterprise of Mark Campbell, to the extent that they are in a position to apply for a place in the Super League, so to hold Featherstone up as an example for Dewsbury to follow is also unfair, as the two clubs' circumstances are totally different.

Super League might sound great to you guys, and good luck with that, but the vast majority of Rams fans would settle for seeing a team on the field challenging for trophies at this level, attracting crowds in excess of 3,000 and, dare I say it, replicating Batley's success in recent years.

Maybe it isn't for you guys, but that's a pretty high bar for us.

The club is not currently in a position, due to a lack of finances and resources, to run Academy teams at every level, as much as we'd love to have them, so other avenues have to be explored in order to add further depth to our squad.

The Bradford partnership allows Dewsbury access to players attached to the Bradford club on a formal basis, not too dissimilar to the dual-registration system that's been in operation for three seasons.

Players on dual-registration deals at Dewsbury from Bradford may be called back by their parent club at short notice, but that's been the case for the last three years, and there was no talk of clubs "selling their soul" when the dual-reg system was introduced - in fact, it was welcomed as a positive development.

Our head coach Glenn Morrison and his assistant Richard Slater will decide at all times who plays for Dewsbury in 2013. It's very simple in that respect.

Glenn has assembled a squad of 22 players who are signed to Dewsbury Rams and more will follow in the weeks ahead. They won't be Bradford's players, they'll be ours and they'll play for us, unless somebody wants to approach us with a view to signing them, as has been the case for the more than 100 years of our existence.

We have lost players to Super League clubs for years before and that will continue. Leeds, Bradford, Wakefield and Cas have signed our town's best young players for years before and that will continue too.

The advantage Bradford gain from the arrangement is a potential new avenue for their players to gain experience, but, as mentioned, they'll only play if Glenn wants them to play.

You'll probably find in the months ahead that Super League clubs partner with more than one club from the Championships, to give each of their players at a loose end an extra opportunity. If Francis Cummins could choose which of his players played for us and when then there'd be no need for the extra clubs.

I'm not trying to paint a bleak picture, as I'm very optimistic about my club, but that's the reality of the situation and the deal with Bradford has been struck in acknowledgement of that reality.

We can end the deal when we want, we could even pull out now if we wanted and nobody could stop us from doing it.

Since the club announced the partnership, we've had a number of supporters challenging the deal and accusing us of everything from becoming "a feeder club" to "selling our soul", and we've even had the odd Fev fan threatening to boycott our matches for some reason, which will only punish a fellow Championship club trying to make ends meet.

Point-for-point debates on the issue have ensued and there have been some really interesting discussions, but I've found that they all reach the same conclusion and that is the 'doubter' closing his contribution to a thread with "I don't care how you spin it..." or "you can dress it up how you like...", as they've run out of counter-points.

Of course, the conspiracy theory is a lot more exciting, but telling supporters of other clubs that to "do what we do" and "tell SL clubs where to go" is utterly pointless - unless, of course, you want to stump up the cash to help us fund a full youth structure.

#108 Gav Wilson

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:31 PM

Absolutely 100% spot on Tom. Very well said.

(Now prepare to be shot down in flames like I was on Thursday... This sport's dying you know ;) )
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#109 intheshed

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:46 PM

Absolutely 100% spot on Tom. Very well said.

(Now prepare to be shot down in flames like I was on Thursday... This sport's dying you know ;) )


You all but admitted on the main forum the other day that you have no idea how these partnerships will be run with regard to player availibility and salary caps.

It seems to me your uninformed support of them is no more credible than the uninformed doom mongering that assumes they are a sign of the imminent death of the game outside SL.

#110 Tom Coates

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:02 PM

I've spoken to John Ledger and Jon Roberts (RFL) and Stuart Duffy (Bradford) directly about the scheme so I know a bit about it, though the nature of the agreement reached means it will manifest itself in different ways at different clubs.

The 'salary' issue is pretty trivial for clubs like Dewsbury, as we can't afford to spend near to the limit anyway.

What's your knowledge of the salary machinations of the scheme, and why is that particular aspect worth worrying about?

#111 Gav Wilson

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:12 PM

You all but admitted on the main forum the other day that you have no idea how these partnerships will be run with regard to player availibility and salary caps.

It seems to me your uninformed support of them is no more credible than the uninformed doom mongering that assumes they are a sign of the imminent death of the game outside SL.


I know how many players will be available any given week, and how many can be used any given week. The salary cap point is irrelevant as none of the clubs entering these partnerships will be spending £300k on a squad anyway.

Sorry for putting my trust in John Guildford and Gary Thornton's judgement on the matter after speaking to them about it, but they will be more informed than most, so there you go.

My relatively informed support is far more credible than the uninformed manic knee-jerk reactions and 'feeder club' rubbish that has been spouted on these forums over the last few weeks.

Edited by Gav Wilson, 22 October 2012 - 08:13 PM.

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#112 Gav Wilson

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:12 PM

.

Edited by Gav Wilson, 22 October 2012 - 08:13 PM.

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#113 Les Tonks Sidestep

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:23 PM

... though our efforts in 1999 and 2000 were not rewarded with a spot in Super League,.....


Corker...

#114 intheshed

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:04 PM

I've spoken to John Ledger and Jon Roberts (RFL) and Stuart Duffy (Bradford) directly about the scheme so I know a bit about it, though the nature of the agreement reached means it will manifest itself in different ways at different clubs.

The 'salary' issue is pretty trivial for clubs like Dewsbury, as we can't afford to spend near to the limit anyway.

What's your knowledge of the salary machinations of the scheme, and why is that particular aspect worth worrying about?


Its not so much that i have a problem with the cap or am worried about it in any particular way, more that it is potentially a means by which behavours which would be mutually beneficial to both sides of a twinning agreement but which compromise the integrity of the championship could be prevented. My intetest is whether it will or not. As an example, Dews play York both in danger of relegation, are we reliant on a sense of fair play to ensure one or both cant put out an unusually strong compliment of Dr's or is there something in the rules to prevent it?

For similar reasons I have enquired about how many games a DR player will need to play to be eligable for the play offs. Again, to date there have been no answers, if you have it that would be great.

I'm not looking for reasons to oppose these agreements, quite the opposite really. I'm simply seeking reassurance that the potential to compromise the competition has been properly considered & adequate protections put in place.

#115 oldrover

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:05 PM

Absolutely 100% spot on Tom. Very well said.

(Now prepare to be shot down in flames like I was on Thursday... This sport's dying you know ;) )

what, and you think it;s thriving
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#116 Gav Wilson

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:13 PM

what, and you think it;s thriving


Is that a question or a statement?

Is there not allowed to be a middle ground?

Personally I think the game at present is 'fine'. The sport could do things much better, the sport could do other things much worse. Give me Rugby League's problems over Football's problems any day of the week.

All I try to do on here, twitter and on LoveRugbyLeague.com is try to keep things in perspective, while adding reasons to be positive, and generally give a sense of cautious optimism.

In my humble opinion the sport of Rugby League is not even close to dying, and the meetings I've had with Featherstone over the last few weeks only reinforce that view. I'm sorry if this offends you all.
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#117 intheshed

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:24 PM

I know how many players will be available any given week, and how many can be used any given week. The salary cap point is irrelevant as none of the clubs entering these partnerships will be spending £300k on a squad anyway.

Sorry for putting my trust in John Guildford and Gary Thornton's judgement on the matter after speaking to them about it, but they will be more informed than most, so there you go.

My relatively informed support is far more credible than the uninformed manic knee-jerk reactions and 'feeder club' rubbish that has been spouted on these forums over the last few weeks.


OK, you seem to be in possesion of more info than last week. If you now know how many players will be available any given week presumably you can now tell me if York have a guarantee that all DR players who are fit & not in the first team at Hull will be available for Gary Thornton to select? Its not a trick question, if the answer is yes my concerns in this area are largely dealt with. If no my concern about York having to on occasion field a weakened team and thus compromise the competition remains.

If your concern is whether this is good for York then Gary Thornton & John Guildford would strike me as good people to put your faith in, thats not however the context in which im raising my concerns.


#118 Gav Wilson

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:28 PM

Its not so much that i have a problem with the cap or am worried about it in any particular way, more that it is potentially a means by which behavours which would be mutually beneficial to both sides of a twinning agreement but which compromise the integrity of the championship could be prevented. My intetest is whether it will or not. As an example, Dews play York both in danger of relegation, are we reliant on a sense of fair play to ensure one or both cant put out an unusually strong compliment of Dr's or is there something in the rules to prevent it?

For similar reasons I have enquired about how many games a DR player will need to play to be eligable for the play offs. Again, to date there have been no answers, if you have it that would be great.

I'm not looking for reasons to oppose these agreements, quite the opposite really. I'm simply seeking reassurance that the potential to compromise the competition has been properly considered & adequate protections put in place.


Remember that both York and Dewsbury have built very competent squads of their own players for next season, and DR players (if selected) will be lads on the fringes of SuperLeague, not regular first graders. Too much emphasis in this debate is under the assumption that Hull and Bradford (or any other SL club) are going to be loaning out superstars like Gareth Ellis, when in reality that simply isn't going to happen.
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#119 Keith T

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:30 PM

I've spoken to John Ledger and Jon Roberts (RFL) and Stuart Duffy (Bradford) directly about the scheme so I know a bit about it, though the nature of the agreement reached means it will manifest itself in different ways at different clubs.

The 'salary' issue is pretty trivial for clubs like Dewsbury, as we can't afford to spend near to the limit anyway.

What's your knowledge of the salary machinations of the scheme, and why is that particular aspect worth worrying about?


Like you I have also asked questions of Mr Roberts about these agreements which you say will manifest in different ways at different clubs.

Take my club Workington Town for instance how can we get the same sort of link with any SL club that Dewsbury can have with Bradford, or Swinton with Warrington, when the nearest SL club to us is 125 miles away. It would be a costly exercise to use the SL clubs facilities, sports science, physios, etc, and totally not practical. Then moving on to players movements we had 3 dual registration players from HKR last season and after 1 home game 2 of them didn't like the travelling and we never saw them again!!!!! Mr Roberts answer to me was that they were investing in a regional academy for Cumbria to continue to support development of players in Cumbria. Not quite the same as our club getting full-time SL players added to the squad!!!!!

Mr Roberts and others talk about the integrity of the competition but because of the distance between our club and SL clubs he says that a SL club may add a second club to their link as long as that club is in Cumbria, North East, Wales, South East, South West, Midlands, etc, in fact anywhere outside the M62 area. That immediately relegates our club to a second choice by SL clubs, which is what has happened with St Helens linking with Rochdale and Whitehaven.

When a club overspends on players, etc, they get fined and lose points under the salary cap regulations so I asked what would happen if a club in a link agreement brought in SL players which would have pushed that club over the salary cap level. He replied that all players will be given a cap "value" so that clubs in an agreement wouldn't have an advantage, which on its own presents a can of worms which is likely to cause disagreements over players "values".

There is no way that clubs outside the M62 corridor can get full benefits of this scheme and by virtue of that the integrity of the competition IS not maintained.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#120 Gav Wilson

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:32 PM

OK, you seem to be in possesion of more info than last week. If you now know how many players will be available any given week presumably you can now tell me if York have a guarantee that all DR players who are fit & not in the first team at Hull will be available for Gary Thornton to select? Its not a trick question, if the answer is yes my concerns in this area are largely dealt with. If no my concern about York having to on occasion field a weakened team and thus compromise the competition remains.

If your concern is whether this is good for York then Gary Thornton & John Guildford would strike me as good people to put your faith in, thats not however the context in which im raising my concerns.


At this very early stage in the 2013 season, I can tell you that all players who are fit and available but not in Hull's 19 man matchday squad will be available for Gary Thornton to select if he feels they will make York stronger. Also please refer to my above post for a bit of perspective about the quality of the players that will be available. :)
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