402 replies to this topic

[The Parksider]

Having said that Keighley Albion and the Cougar Cubs were the be-all and end-all of rugby league, you should be embarrassed that you were so wrong

They are the be all and end all in keighley.

But somehow you have allocated barnoldswick to keighley which is as damn stupid as when you decided the midlands would be Sheffield's catchment area.

Your stupidity knows no bounds when you then assume that any decent player anywhere in the midlands would go to Sheffield and any decent barnoldswick player would go to keighley.

And this extends to further stupidity that none of these kids would go to either club if they were any good because neither is a Superleague club.

I may feel embarrassed at getting something wrong, how do you feel getting stuff wrong with such regularity?

Edited by The Parksider, 10 November 2012 - 04:57 PM.

[The Parksider]

Who did they sign that is paid so much?

Read the records sixty points plus.

Do your own research.

[The Parksider]

Had Cougarmania continued, the potential in the area was there.

Potential for what??

For a small club to do what???

Very small junior base, small fanbase even when winning and huge huge debts to get to the door of Superleague.

Even the mighty Bulls could not get much going RL wise in adjacent areas like Shipley, Bingley, Baildon, Skipton, all more likely to respond to grand final winners than huge debtors.

Just another stupid post.

[Ackydave]

Potential for what??

For a small club to do what???

Very small junior base, small fanbase even when winning and huge huge debts to get to the door of Superleague.

Even the mighty Bulls could not get much going RL wise in adjacent areas like Shipley, Bingley, Baildon, Skipton, all more likely to respond to grand final winners than huge debtors.

Just another stupid post.

Tell you what. Why don't Cas, Wakey, Leeds, Huddersfield and the Bulls amalgamate; form one big club and then be able to maximise their investments in local talent, after all they do clutter up the same geographical area and they are in the "heartlands."
There'll be far too many youngsters then for one club to cope with. It only needs Those on the other side of the hills to do the same and we could then have an extremely interesting competition; not many fixtures mind; but we'd have 5 very well financed and viable entities slogging in out week after week.

Can't wait for the playoffs

[The Parksider]

Tell you what. Why don't Cas, Wakey, Leeds, Huddersfield and the Bulls amalgamate; form one big club and then be able to maximise their investments in local talent, after all they do clutter up the same geographical area and they are in the "heartlands."
There'll be far too many youngsters then for one club to cope with. It only needs Those on the other side of the hills to do the same and we could then have an extremely interesting competition; not many fixtures mind; but we'd have 5 very well financed and viable entities slogging in out week after week.

Can't wait for the playoffs

Tell YOU what...Why don't you actually state your point rather than provide a joke proposition where Rugby League only has 5 clubs who play each other what?? six or seven times a year and again in the play off.

The only reason the game has it's head above water and has not been swamped by soccer and rugby Union which is mega rich compared to league is because the scant resources of the game are concentrated into an elite league that has the effect of...

1. Attracting tens of millions of pounds into the game via a TV contract
2. Providing an attraction to quality RL players such that they don't bog off to union.
3. Attracting well over 120,000 paying customers
4. Attracting respect from the media such that the game is not completely ignored
5. Attracting respect and interest from a massive swathe of the country that actually then decides to start playing and watching the game.

So if we want the game to succeed we all need to get behind Mo Lyndsay's legacy and all fans and sponsors and rich directors etc should support a league in which Wales, London, France, and eight amalgamations of M62 clubs concentrate every penny, every player, every wave of the scarf, and every cheer, into our flagship. A league in which the finance is used to balance out a competitive scenario from top to bottom.

What a brilliant league it would be, something to rival the Guiness premiership or Austraila's NRL.

Unless one does not give a toss about Rugby League in which case we should reject all SKY monies and continue to champion any underdog we can create, whilst disappearing up our own bumholes trying to recreate the past........

[Ackydave]

Tell YOU what...Why don't you actually state your point rather than provide a joke proposition where Rugby League only has 5 clubs who play each other what?? six or seven times a year and again in the play off.

The only reason the game has it's head above water and has not been swamped by soccer and rugby Union which is mega rich compared to league is because the scant resources of the game are concentrated into an elite league that has the effect of...

1. Attracting tens of millions of pounds into the game via a TV contract
2. Providing an attraction to quality RL players such that they don't bog off to union.
3. Attracting well over 120,000 paying customers
4. Attracting respect from the media such that the game is not completely ignored
5. Attracting respect and interest from a massive swathe of the country that actually then decides to start playing and watching the game.

So if we want the game to succeed we all need to get behind Mo Lyndsay's legacy and all fans and sponsors and rich directors etc should support a league in which Wales, London, France, and eight amalgamations of M62 clubs concentrate every penny, every player, every wave of the scarf, and every cheer, into our flagship. A league in which the finance is used to balance out a competitive scenario from top to bottom.

What a brilliant league it would be, something to rival the Guiness premiership or Austraila's NRL.

Unless one does not give a toss about Rugby League in which case we should reject all SKY monies and continue to champion any underdog we can create, whilst disappearing up our own bumholes trying to recreate the past........

You've got me Parksider...I can't go.

I was merely making a suggestion that we take Mo's merger theory to a better conclusion and instead of pratting about with small change like Fev, Cas and Wakey (after all, their days must be numbered cos they're skint aren't they?), we should go the whole hog and concentrate upon a more viable proposition.
Why! we could even sell or lease Odsal to the Bronco's and let them in on it too (feeder club perhaps?).

I hear what you say and accept and respect much of what you say. You, however (along with others) poor scorn upon the views of others who want to see their team succeed. But if that team, in your view, isn't financially viable you simply dismiss them and pour scorn upon their ambitions.

The problem is you see, I support a certain team (which happens to be FEV); I'll never support another - just like many supporters of other teams.

I may be old fashioned and still living the dream. I don't apologise for that. I support my team and want to see them compete against the best.

Being old fashioned and still living the dream, I still see my team and others as part of the whole. You on the other hand seem to see my team and others as part of the problem. Ce'st La vie as they in Ponty. I just wish a definitive decision would be taken to decide our fate and either let us continue with the dream or cast us out of the "club". If it was the latter I'm sure we and others would survive in a league of our own - without any future RFL interference.

[The Parksider]

1. You've got me Parksider...I can't go.

2. I hear what you say and accept and respect much of what you say. You, however (along with others) poor scorn upon the views of others who want to see their team succeed. But if that team, in your view, isn't financially viable you simply dismiss them and pour scorn upon their ambitions.

1. You did go and produced an excellent reply.

2. I understand what you are saying but seriously it’s not like that. Of course the natural ambition of any club fan will see them post on here about Super League ambitions, often led on by their directors own public announcements about next stop Superleague.

I have a choice of shutting up or just saying “yeh go for it” or engaging in a debate about these ambitions. I choose to politely and gently suggest that such ambitions need millions which CC clubs don’t have, Pro players which CC clubs even with academies don’t produce and if they do don’t keep, and fans which CC clubs do not have in the numbers necessary for SL.

All these facts are easy to prove the figures are there and even your own club shows annual losses in the accounts, low crowds that can’t grow five fold in the current circumstances, and a great record of producing pro players from Fev/Ponte but none of whom stay.

But there’s no scorn. I support Fev having a go as they have never had a chance for Superleague. I support the idea if Wakey and Cas collapse due to ground problems Fev on their own in Superleague could draw the Calder area together to be one big force to break the status quo. You have a money man who may just back you. I’ve posted these things for years now. Scorn?? No I don’t think so. The record doesn’t show that.

Yes I’m guilty of scorn but it’s invariably heaped on a very small minority on here who do not engage in any debate, they take a view that suits and contrive answer after answer that supports a view such as Leigh, Oldham, Sheffield, Keighley etc can “grow” to be successes in Superleague when nothing backs those views at all.

The “scorn” is not for those clubs or their fans who want a sensible debate, it is for the ridiculously contrived answers from the few usual suspects. OK they are free to dream, but if they dream on here others - as you say not just myself - are free to counter their “arguments” and I choose to do so. In turn they choose to come back at me time and time again until the point of the debate is lost and all they are trying to do is trip me up on the tiniest thing which usually backfires.

The big thing is they are the ones who refuse to agree to disagree. You'd best see them not me.....

[The Parksider]

I was merely making a suggestion that we take Mo's merger theory to a better conclusion and instead of pratting about with small change like Fev, Cas and Wakey (after all, their days must be numbered cos they're skint aren't they?), we should go the whole hog and concentrate upon a more viable proposition.

Being old fashioned and still living the dream, I still see my team and others as part of the whole. You on the other hand seem to see my team and others as part of the problem.

The problem is you see, I support a certain team (which happens to be FEV); I'll never support another - just like many supporters of other teams.

By all means live the dream, but live and let me live the reality.

No Cas, Wakey and Fev are not skint they are rich. They are rich in quality local players and they are rich in the number of fans, they have a richer RL culture than anywhere in the northern hemisphere IMHO.

I understand entirely the problem that some people do not want their clubs to merge, but live and let live - other people DO.

But I do not advocate mergers at all because it's not my shout - go have a vote.

As for Fev being a "problem" it's up to them what they do and don't forget Cas choose to maintain their independence and so do Wakefield so IF I did see Fev as a "problem" (which I don't, they are no problem to me) then ipso facto so are Wakefield and Cas.

All I see is the logic in Lyndsays plans. I see the difficulties in it ever happening as he planned it, and I see a small cabal of clubs who are making something like it happen with the help of the RFL such that your either in or your frozen out probably for good for many.

As above I've set out what could be done if people want RL to succeed in all it's laid bare glory. Whether I want that to happen is neither here nor there, and if I am honest I want nothing to do with getting behind any schemes - whether it's the preservation of the past or it's demolition.

But I do love to follow these events and comment and debate on them.

Don't shoot the messenger.....

Edited by The Parksider, 11 November 2012 - 09:29 AM.

[keighley]

1. You did go and produced an excellent reply.

2. I understand what you are saying but seriously it’s not like that. Of course the natural ambition of any club fan will see them post on here about Super League ambitions, often led on by their directors own public announcements about next stop Superleague.

I have a choice of shutting up or just saying “yeh go for it” or engaging in a debate about these ambitions. I choose to politely and gently suggest that such ambitions need millions which CC clubs don’t have, Pro players which CC clubs even with academies don’t produce and if they do don’t keep, and fans which CC clubs do not have in the numbers necessary for SL.

All these facts are easy to prove the figures are there and even your own club shows annual losses in the accounts, low crowds that can’t grow five fold in the current circumstances, and a great record of producing pro players from Fev/Ponte but none of whom stay.

But there’s no scorn. I support Fev having a go as they have never had a chance for Superleague. I support the idea if Wakey and Cas collapse due to ground problems Fev on their own in Superleague could draw the Calder area together to be one big force to break the status quo. You have a money man who may just back you. I’ve posted these things for years now. Scorn?? No I don’t think so. The record doesn’t show that.

Yes I’m guilty of scorn but it’s invariably heaped on a very small minority on here who do not engage in any debate, they take a view that suits and contrive answer after answer that supports a view such as Leigh, Oldham, Sheffield, Keighley etc can “grow” to be successes in Superleague when nothing backs those views at all.

The “scorn” is not for those clubs or their fans who want a sensible debate, it is for the ridiculously contrived answers from the few usual suspects. OK they are free to dream, but if they dream on here others - as you say not just myself - are free to counter their “arguments” and I choose to do so. In turn they choose to come back at me time and time again until the point of the debate is lost and all they are trying to do is trip me up on the tiniest thing which usually backfires.

The big thing is they are the ones who refuse to agree to disagree. You'd best see them not me.....

Those people who think they know everything and are totally sure that there position is engraved on tablets from God are particularly annoying to those of us who think differenttly.

[keighley]

All I see is the logic in Lyndsays plans. I see the difficulties in it ever happening as he planned it, and I see a small cabal of clubs who are making something like it happen with the help of the RFL such that your either in or your frozen out probably for good for many.

You seem to have to have adopted Lyndsay as the prophet of Rugby League and his ideas a tablets from the mountain. In reality he ran Wigan into the ground but caused them to be so dominant in the process that he damaged the other clubs who could not compete. He then was RL chairman of the game he had helped to wreck and was staring extinction in the face when Murdoch, for reasons completely related to his struggles with Kerry Packer in Australia, came riding to the rescue with the Sky money. Lyndsay was in the right place at the right time and he and the game were lucky. Do you think the merger proposals were Lyndsay's or Murdoch wishing to save money by only having to finance a smaller number of clubs.

It is always interesting to me that a merger which would have made sense, namely St Helens and Wigan, two small towns in very close proximity to each other, were never proposed as possible merger targets. Perhaps he didn't want to shoot his beloved Wigan just the other inconvenient nonentities deemed worth of sacrifice.

The SL you propose of two French and a Welsh team, two of the three being at present being a pipe dream and a fantasy, and 8 English teams is too small a base. It will disenfranchise many, many thousands of fans, who will not flock to the remaining SL teams, and will cause the teams outside the pale of SL to wither and die and the game of RL with it.

I don't see any signs of Lyndsay aplying for Lewis's job to finish his mission. He flew the coop to soccer. Some visionary he was.

[The Art of Hand and Foot]

Maurice Lyndsey, to my mind, was the catalyst that destroyed the original Oldham club! Why?

Well he didn't do it intentionally, but what he did was go for broke with Wigan.

They were the first club to go fully professional, it can be argued, and because of that they were unstoppable.

So the likes of Oldham tried to match them by spending stupid money on players they couldn't afford.

Tony Anderson, for one.

So Oldham had to sell the ground and in the end died.

I don't blame Lyndsey, but he was the catalyst.

In a case like this there is no blame, Oldham didn't know better, they tried to catch up and went bust.

[The Parksider]

It is always interesting to me that a merger which would have made sense, namely St Helens and Wigan, two small towns in very close proximity to each other, were never proposed as possible merger targets.

That's just the sort of thing that beggars belief.

But doesn't beg a reply.

[The Parksider]

Maurice Lyndsey, to my mind, was the catalyst that destroyed the original Oldham club! Why?

Well he didn't do it intentionally, but what he did was go for broke with Wigan.

They were the first club to go fully professional, it can be argued, and because of that they were unstoppable.

So the likes of Oldham tried to match them by spending stupid money on players they couldn't afford.

Tony Anderson, for one.

So Oldham had to sell the ground and in the end died.

I don't blame Lyndsey, but he was the catalyst.

In a case like this there is no blame, Oldham didn't know better, they tried to catch up and went bust.

Interesting thoughts.

Edited by The Parksider, 11 November 2012 - 07:14 PM.

[Trojan]

You seem to have to have adopted Lyndsay as the prophet of Rugby League and his ideas a tablets from the mountain. In reality he ran Wigan into the ground but caused them to be so dominant in the process that he damaged the other clubs who could not compete. He then was RL chairman of the game he had helped to wreck and was staring extinction in the face when Murdoch, for reasons completely related to his struggles with Kerry Packer in Australia, came riding to the rescue with the Sky money. Lyndsay was in the right place at the right time and he and the game were lucky. Do you think the merger proposals were Lyndsay's or Murdoch wishing to save money by only having to finance a smaller number of clubs.

It is always interesting to me that a merger which would have made sense, namely St Helens and Wigan, two small towns in very close proximity to each other, were never proposed as possible merger targets. Perhaps he didn't want to shoot his beloved Wigan just the other inconvenient nonentities deemed worth of sacrifice.

The SL you propose of two French and a Welsh team, two of the three being at present being a pipe dream and a fantasy, and 8 English teams is too small a base. It will disenfranchise many, many thousands of fans, who will not flock to the remaining SL teams, and will cause the teams outside the pale of SL to wither and die and the game of RL with it.

I don't see any signs of Lyndsay aplying for Lewis's job to finish his mission. He flew the coop to soccer. Some visionary he was.

no arguments from me!

[The Parksider]

It will disenfranchise many, many thousands of fans, who will not flock to the remaining SL teams, and will cause the teams outside the pale of SL to wither and die and the game of RL with it........

You two doomongers deserve each other.

It's always the same stuff, don't change anything...

Always go backwards to where we were.

Because if we don't the game will DIE.

Three teams in Leeds in the past. Only one team in it in Leeds today.

Profitable large crowds

Large numbers of quality players being produced.

Forget reality guys

The problem with you two is your biased, you support small clubs who make big losses and want the past to come back.

I don't blame you but your private Fraser impressions are self serving.

Were old men we aren't the audience of tomorrow, and tomorrows fans have no alliegences to the old traditional clubs

Edited by The Parksider, 12 November 2012 - 07:24 AM.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

They are the be all and end all in keighley.

But somehow you have allocated barnoldswick to keighley which is as damn stupid as when you decided the midlands would be Sheffield's catchment area.

Your stupidity knows no bounds when you then assume that any decent player anywhere in the midlands would go to Sheffield and any decent barnoldswick player would go to keighley.

And this extends to further stupidity that none of these kids would go to either club if they were any good because neither is a Superleague club.

I may feel embarrassed at getting something wrong, how do you feel getting stuff wrong with such regularity?

they aren't


http://www.barla.org...cts.asp?id=1184

Pete Fell their sometime chair a good friend and employer of mine will be turning in his grave!

They had a good side in his day.

[The Parksider]

It is always interesting to me that a merger which would have made sense, namely St Helens and Wigan....... two small towns

You and your mate need to wake up grasp the economics.

St.Helens is a profitable RL club and attracts support from a wide area not from it's small town base.

Wigan is a profitable RL club and attracts support from a wide area and not from it's small town base.

But you have your facts filter on as always. Anything that proves we have to move forward is filtered out.

We need 12,13,14 profitable clubs in SL and your stupid (no apologies it is stupid) idea is to dump one of the few who are successful.

You say less clubs will "disenfranchise many, many thousands of fans, who will not flock to the remaining SL teams",

That phrase is as always not backed up by any logic whatsoever.

There's effectively two less clubs in Leeds yet more people pay to watch RL and Leeds are profitable like Wigan and Saints.

When HKR were dumped out of SL Hull went on to profitable 14,500 crowds and competed. Now 19,500 fans watch the pro game in hull and guess what.........

Both clubs make losses.

You like to mock the idea of mergers and less clubs but here's a great idea for you.

Bring back Recs, Boro, Huyton, Carlisle, Tyldesly, Belle Vue, Bramley, Scarborough, Highfield, Springfield, Streatham, Carlisle, Mansfield, Crusaders, Cardiff, Nottingham, Pontefract, Liverpool, Newcastle, Acton, Coventry, Brighouse, Ebbw Vale, merthyr, Bradford PA, Manningham etc.

Let's then split the SKY money 60 ways. That's £300K a club each. let's have 5 divisions of 12.

Sorted..........

Now there's a wonderful future for our game. We can have 60 clubs all making losses, all attracting gates in the hundreds, we can enjoy it without TV getting in the way, the evil SKY the awful BBC and their dreadful coverage. We can cheer on the players knowing they like to play for next to nowt because they love the game, those top class players who've gone to RU are mercenaries anyway.

Enjoy the fantasy.

You fail to grasp that when Oldham (back on topic) got 3,600 fans that gave them a big fat monetary loss. It was not enough to fund a competitive pro team or repair the ramsahckle ground. You surely understand this simple economic situation? Or do you??

By creating an Elite league of a smaller number of clubs the number of fans paying to watch game live at the ground had RISEN CONSIDERABLY. Can you not grasp this fact. Water it all down and you have everyone going bust and fans walking away all over.

Try the calder area, there's 16,000 fans there and guess what. Wakefield go bust, Castleford in dire economic problems, featherstone making losses year on year.

How can Rugby league thrive on losses all round.

If Wakefield at Newmarket had a clear run of the area, managed to get crowds to a profitable 10,000 and started to provide some competition for leeds, Wigan and saints how fantastic would that be?

Not in your book though. You'd lament how 9,000 Cas and Fev fans would have been lost to the game, and how these clubs would die and how RL in the area would die and how nobody from Cas or Fev or Ponte would ever watch Wakefield. Yeh nobody from South or west leeds would ever watch Leeds and east Hull would become a soccer stronghold.

You also fail to see the armchair fan. Open your eyes and look at how many people pay how much to sit in their armchair and watch our SL clubs. Every friday and saturday i have two mates who watch Superleague and their subs go on to pay SKY who go on to pay the RFL. They don't go near live SL games.

I'm sorry mate but this idea that creating an elite "disenfranchises" fans to the detriment of the game is correct in that it disenfranchises a good 15,000 fans who would have liked to stick with the old days like you.

But is has franchised many thousands more fans who are attracted to an eleite professional game - probably 40,000 or more, and it has enabled hundreds of thousands of RL fans who cannot get to a ground because they only really play the game in the north and Twickenham.

Open the other eye..........

Edited by The Parksider, 12 November 2012 - 10:02 AM.

[Northern Sol]

They are the be all and end all in keighley.

But somehow you have allocated barnoldswick to keighley which is as damn stupid as when you decided the midlands would be Sheffield's catchment area.

Your stupidity knows no bounds when you then assume that any decent player anywhere in the midlands would go to Sheffield and any decent barnoldswick player would go to keighley.

And this extends to further stupidity that none of these kids would go to either club if they were any good because neither is a Superleague club.

I may feel embarrassed at getting something wrong, how do you feel getting stuff wrong with such regularity?

It's not me that thinks that Sheffield is near Huddersfield but a long way from Derbyshire despite part of Sheffield actually being in Derbyshire. It's not me that argues that Midlands players wouldn't sign up to a Sheffield club despite several of them actually doing so.

As for "getting things wrong", there was the assurance that Crusaders would spend the full salary cap...Or that we would have a second London SL club cos Lewis / Sky wanted it....Or the thread after thread you made saying that flatcappers had their heads in the sands since everybody knew that a Scottish national league side was in the pipeline....

I don't recall ever having made a prediction which has come wrong.

[The Parksider]

they aren't


http://www.barla.org...cts.asp?id=1184

Pete Fell their sometime chair a good friend and employer of mine will be turning in his grave!

They had a good side in his day.

Do they run juniors Ange......

Edited by The Parksider, 12 November 2012 - 09:21 AM.

[Northern Sol]

Read the records sixty points plus.

Do your own research.

Sixty points against Warrington's second team and they were regularly hammered with exactly the same side earlier in the season. They didn't pay the full cap the previous season and they signed nobody significant in the meantime.