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#41 shaun mc

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:15 AM

Only the ones that are no longer good enough for the Championship. I'm okay with that.

Players will always find their natural level at some point.

There will undoubtedly players pushed out at championship clubs who were good enough to play in the championship last year and may have developed into better players this year. Now some Championship clubs will be favouring fringe SL players either through wide-eyed optimism or because the fringe players from SL are higher up the pecking order a la Rochdale.
Championship clubs have such a low salary cap that they can't afford extra players outside of the matchday 17 or squad of 25 or so who are players that they'd like to develop during the coming season.
Players want to play each week and not spend a few weeks on the sidleines when the fringe SL players are in favour. They won't want to be seen as a fill-in when the SL player is recalled or injured. The SL fringe player will still be benefitting from full time training, facilities and coaching ahead of the squad player, so its absolutely logical that the SL player is favoured. If the squad players are on match payments only, then even if they are good enough but not getting enough games to bring money in for their families, then they will just step down a few levels, go back to their trade and probably not realise their potential.
This step is short term and has huge impiications for the overall talent pool and that is why it is large threat to the sport

#42 shaun mc

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:32 AM

"Best conveyor belts of talent"????

There's couple of cracking amateur clubs in the area and a few SL players do come from Oldham.

"Bags of potential"????

They were formed in 1876 they've had 146 years to realise this potential and they have 500 fans and play in CC1. Bit like Skolars or Hemel who also produce talent.


A decent number of SL players come from the Oldham area proportionate to not running academy or full junior set-ups.
Just because there isn't a team full of them on SL a la Leeds, do we just abandon the area?
I think your utopia scenario - 4 or 5 strong UK clubs who can spend full cap and more, post a profit and afford full junior set-up, marketing etc etc plus London and 2/3 French clubs and then a set of Sunday league/pub teams below aint going to work either.
RL is about inclusion, all I see in posts is exclusion. It isn't all about money and if you haven't got it don't even bother suggesting what plans and potential and development you may or may not have because they'll just be dismissed with as many posts on this forum as can be mustered so it sinks in. Everyone else outside of the elite should sit in their box and say nowt.
The number of posts about money vs the number of posts about developing the talent pool and the sport itself is illuminating.

#43 Padge

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:40 AM

A decent number of SL players come from the Oldham area proportionate to not running academy or full junior set-ups.
Just because there isn't a team full of them on SL a la Leeds, do we just abandon the area?
I think your utopia scenario - 4 or 5 strong UK clubs who can spend full cap and more, post a profit and afford full junior set-up, marketing etc etc plus London and 2/3 French clubs and then a set of Sunday league/pub teams below aint going to work either.
RL is about inclusion, all I see in posts is exclusion. It isn't all about money and if you haven't got it don't even bother suggesting what plans and potential and development you may or may not have because they'll just be dismissed with as many posts on this forum as can be mustered so it sinks in. Everyone else outside of the elite should sit in their box and say nowt.
The number of posts about money vs the number of posts about developing the talent pool and the sport itself is illuminating.


I'm sorry but you cannot escape the fact that pro-sport is about money. Paying players costs money you can't pay them promises, as Bob Dylan said "you can't eat applause for breakfast".

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#44 JohnM

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:43 AM

I would have thought that Oldham would be thriving given that they have P&R to act as a major stimulus to spectator interest.


Quite so. My contention is that despite the efforts of many many loyal and motivated people (who are maybe too close to things to see the bigger picture and are too loyal to admit the real position) this history of the last 30 years shows that the 200,000 declared residents of Oldham MBC or whatever it is called these days are completely indifferent to Oldham RLFC.

Shame though that is, it is still true. Similarly with Salford, possibly and similarly with London. The thing is that these latter two clubs seem to be able to do something to stay at the top level.

#45 JohnM

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:50 AM

I'm sorry but you cannot escape the fact that pro-sport is about money. Paying players costs money you can't pay them promises, as Bob Dylan said "you can't eat applause for breakfast".

spot on. however much we might like it not to be, the case, Am-rugby is also about money. It costs amateur clubs, amateur players , amateur fans money.

fame costs etc.

Money makes the world go around
The world go around
The world go around
Money makes the world go around
It makes the world go 'round.


#46 The Parksider

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:04 AM

A decent number of SL players come from the Oldham area proportionate to not running academy or full junior set-ups.
Just because there isn't a team full of them on SL a la Leeds, do we just abandon the area?


Shaun.

What makes Oldham a decent area for RL.

I suggest it is....

a. They play the game in schools
b. strong local amateur clubs like saddleworth and St.Annes run junior clubs that turn out pro player
c. Pro players can get contracts with pro clubs like Sinny at Leeds etc.
d. enthusiasts for the game can watch it on SKY or go watch it live.

Now where does Oldham RLFC come in. Well 500 people like to watch them in CC.

Who said anything about abandoning the area?? I don't think I did??

#47 The Parksider

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:09 AM

The last 30 years shows that the 200,000 declared residents of Oldham MBC or whatever it is called these days are completely indifferent to Oldham RLFC.


I'm not sure that is completely true. The good people of Oldham probably have up to 3,000 who would NOT be indifferent to a Oldham Superleague club (they weren't indifferent in 1996/7 on 3,500 crowds).

Now who shall we boot out of SL to put them in, and where will Mr. Hamilton find £25.000.000 from?

#48 keighley

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:12 AM

I would have thought that Oldham would be thriving given that they have P&R to act as a major stimulus to spectator interest.


It might help if they could actually get promoted.

#49 keighley

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:25 AM

A decent number of SL players come from the Oldham area proportionate to not running academy or full junior set-ups.
Just because there isn't a team full of them on SL a la Leeds, do we just abandon the area?
I think your utopia scenario - 4 or 5 strong UK clubs who can spend full cap and more, post a profit and afford full junior set-up, marketing etc etc plus London and 2/3 French clubs and then a set of Sunday league/pub teams below aint going to work either.
RL is about inclusion, all I see in posts is exclusion. It isn't all about money and if you haven't got it don't even bother suggesting what plans and potential and development you may or may not have because they'll just be dismissed with as many posts on this forum as can be mustered so it sinks in. Everyone else outside of the elite should sit in their box and say nowt.
The number of posts about money vs the number of posts about developing the talent pool and the sport itself is illuminating.


Finally, a fellow traveller. Couldn't agree more with your post. A moribund franchise like Wakefield found an investor and suddenly they are an elite team worthy of all praise. It's inconceivable to the naysayers that anybody else can do it.

They can tout the virtues of a French club in Toulouse who bring nothing to Sky's coffers and were a complete disaster when they were competing at a level higher than Oldham are currently operating at because that's the current in vogue thinking but god forbid that any other team could even think about moving in that direction.

It's all about ring fences and whether your face fits or not.

#50 Padge

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:31 AM

It might help if they could actually get promoted.

you don't need to get promoted, we are told that just having P&R makes people turn up their droves.

Edited by Padge, 27 October 2012 - 09:32 AM.


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#51 Padge

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:32 AM

Funnily enough John I put a line in my post about amateurs and money and how the richer amateur clubs rise to the top but decided to delete it.

Edited by Padge, 27 October 2012 - 09:33 AM.


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#52 keighley

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:36 AM

I'm not sure that is completely true. The good people of Oldham probably have up to 3,000 who would NOT be indifferent to a Oldham Superleague club (they weren't indifferent in 1996/7 on 3,500 crowds).

Now who shall we boot out of SL to put them in, and where will Mr. Hamilton find £25.000.000 from?


Nobody is suggesting Oldham for SL. They are light years away from that. They are merely saying the Oldham area is SL territory. Given that in 1996/7 Leeds were pulling in 6,000 if they were lucky, I think that the 3,500 Oldham generated might transalate to double that if they ever made SL in this era. This would be way more than London can muster and on a par with Salford, Castleford and the planned attendances at Toulouse.

Oh, but wait, all those English franchises are on the chopping block in the big downsizing super dooper future success plan for SL league.Nnever mind then, Oldham can aim for the hinted at SL2 which might eclipse the rump SL1 down the road. Nobody likes stagnant small pools..

#53 The Parksider

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:40 AM

Nobody is suggesting Oldham for SL. They are light years away from that. They are merely saying the Oldham area is SL territory. Given that in 1996/7 Leeds were pulling in 6,000 if they were lucky, I think that the 3,500 Oldham generated might transalate to double that if they ever made SL in this era. This would be way more than London can muster and on a par with Salford, Castleford and the planned attendances at Toulouse.

Oh, but wait, all those English franchises are on the chopping block in the big downsizing super dooper future success plan for SL league.Nnever mind then, Oldham can aim for the hinted at SL2 which might eclipse the rump SL1 down the road. Nobody likes stagnant small pools..


London are important for the player pool, if you disagree ring the RFL.

Toulouse are important for new money and international RL if you disagree ring SLE

As for any of the M62 SL incumbents I'm fine with Oldham shifting any of them.

Edited by The Parksider, 27 October 2012 - 09:41 AM.


#54 JohnM

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:41 AM

I'm not sure that is completely true. The good people of Oldham probably have up to 3,000 who would NOT be indifferent to a Oldham Superleague club (they weren't indifferent in 1996/7 on 3,500 crowds).

Now who shall we boot out of SL to put them in, and where will Mr. Hamilton find £25.000.000 from?


yes. still not many, though. I guess what I am saying is that despite the drive, efforts, money etc of anyone and everyone who cares about Oldham RLFC, over 30 years, with different people running the RFL, different league structures, different..well different everything, the story is one of gradual decline when others have improved. Ain't no ones fault... it's kismet.

#55 The Parksider

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:45 AM

A moribund franchise like Wakefield found an investor and suddenly they are an elite team worthy of all praise. It's inconceivable to the naysayers that anybody else can do it.


Mr. Glover made it plain he didn't have much to invest.

Anyway with a big new stadium and 8,000 crowds already I suspect he feels he may be able to manage to keep Wakefield solvent and compete in SL.

Now ask yourself this now you know the facts.

Could the likes of Mr. Glover of Mr. "Two Restraunts" Khan make Oldham a Superleague club???

Careful you don't become a naysayer yourself :lol:

#56 The Parksider

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:48 AM

yes. still not many, though. I guess what I am saying is that despite the drive, efforts, money etc of anyone and everyone who cares about Oldham RLFC, over 30 years, with different people running the RFL, different league structures, different..well different everything, the story is one of gradual decline when others have improved. Ain't no ones fault... it's kismet.


That's sport, winners and losers and all that

Thankfully the gradual decline of a few clubs is more than made up for by by the rapid rise of the big SL clubs!!

Without them we'd all be in decline

#57 keighley

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:48 AM

you don't need to get promoted, we are told that just having P&R makes people turn up their droves.


Are you saying that if Oldham had topped the table and won the grand final in the recently concluded CC1 season that their attendances would not have risen because I would bet that they would have. if there is p and r but you are at the bottom of the league and/or miss the playoffs this will reflect in a negative way on your attendances. Check out the mighty Wigan's attendances when they were in Division two vis a vis their current crowds as a top level, though ultimately trophyless, SL team.

#58 keighley

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:51 AM

London are important for the player pool, if you disagree ring the RFL.

Toulouse are important for new money and international RL if you disagree ring SLE

As for any of the M62 SL incumbents I'm fine with Oldham shifting any of them.


A Toulouse versus London grand final is the league's worst nightmare.

#59 keighley

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:54 AM

That's sport, winners and losers and all that

Thankfully the gradual decline of a few clubs is more than made up for by by the rapid rise of the big SL clubs!!

Without them we'd all be in decline


Big as in Bradford and London, those shining beacons of fiscal competence and ground busting attendances respectively.

#60 JohnM

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 10:02 AM

A Toulouse versus London grand final is the league's worst nightmare.



Can't agree.That would be great final and a great outcome for the game, ...

Unless of course it were say, just picking clubs at random...Oldham V Keighley. That would surely reinforce our game as a small town sport in the north of England




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