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#101 Marauder

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 03:23 PM

Keighley v Oldham, Oldham v Widnes or London v Toulouse?


Hmmm..let me think about that for a moment.
I wonder which would attract t the most media attention and coverage, sponsorship, viewers etc

I wonder which one of those would best illustrate the game's forward looking and outward looking attitude.

I wonder which one of those would shout out to the world's huddled masses, "This is YOUR game!"

OK shouting out to the Worlds deaf when the only people listening are in the heartlands.
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#102 JohnM

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 03:52 PM

My point is that especially in the heartlands, if that correctly describes Oldham, people are not listening when it come to pro-rugby.
(I have to say, I was a full-time student at Oldham College from 1964 to 1968 yet do not recall much enthusiasm in teh town even then)

Isn't there a trend?

On Monday 15 September 1952, record receipts were taken from a gate of 19,370 at Watersheddings to watch Oldham take on the Kangaroo tourists. The Australians lost only one of twenty-two club matches in Britain during that tour, but came close to defeat at Oldham, where the Roughyeds held them to a 7-7 draw.

Oldham pleaded with the local council for a financial bail-out in April 1987. Oldham decided to float as a public limited company and sold their ground to council in May 1987

Oldham were supposed to merge with Salford to form a club to be known as Manchester, which would compete in Super League. This was resisted and instead they adopted the name Oldham Bears and were founder members of the new league (1996) Relegation came in the second year of the new summer season, 1997, when they finished below Paris Saint-Germain.

The club went to Oldham Council for help. Oldham Council bought Whitebank Stadium from Oldham Boro F.C. and then entered into a lease agreement with Oldham Roughyeds RLFC.


Despite the valiant efforts of the various owners, many managers, numerous players, loyal supporters and the Council Tax payers of Oldham, there is a pattern of long term decline with the occasional short term upward kink. In that time, it seems top me that no one with any real passion, power and purse-strings has come forward.

Now, contrast that with St Louis Rams v New England Patriots at Wembleytoday.Tickets at up to £90 each and I reckon also a decent crowd.

There are many people at the grass roots level who make sacrifices and put i huge effort and money into the game and it would be selling all that short if the top level of the game didn't offer a way forward, which is why in my view it is important to properly look at expansion and at new areas. If there is no one in Oldham to step up to the plate, then that opportunity should be offered elsewhere, in my opinion.

Edited by JohnM, 28 October 2012 - 03:53 PM.


#103 Marauder

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 05:12 PM

My point is that especially in the heartlands, if that correctly describes Oldham, people are not listening when it come to pro-rugby.
(I have to say, I was a full-time student at Oldham College from 1964 to 1968 yet do not recall much enthusiasm in teh town even then)

Isn't there a trend?

On Monday 15 September 1952, record receipts were taken from a gate of 19,370 at Watersheddings to watch Oldham take on the Kangaroo tourists. The Australians lost only one of twenty-two club matches in Britain during that tour, but came close to defeat at Oldham, where the Roughyeds held them to a 7-7 draw.

Oldham pleaded with the local council for a financial bail-out in April 1987. Oldham decided to float as a public limited company and sold their ground to council in May 1987

Oldham were supposed to merge with Salford to form a club to be known as Manchester, which would compete in Super League. This was resisted and instead they adopted the name Oldham Bears and were founder members of the new league (1996) Relegation came in the second year of the new summer season, 1997, when they finished below Paris Saint-Germain.

The club went to Oldham Council for help. Oldham Council bought Whitebank Stadium from Oldham Boro F.C. and then entered into a lease agreement with Oldham Roughyeds RLFC.


Despite the valiant efforts of the various owners, many managers, numerous players, loyal supporters and the Council Tax payers of Oldham, there is a pattern of long term decline with the occasional short term upward kink. In that time, it seems top me that no one with any real passion, power and purse-strings has come forward.

Now, contrast that with St Louis Rams v New England Patriots at Wembleytoday.Tickets at up to £90 each and I reckon also a decent crowd.

There are many people at the grass roots level who make sacrifices and put i huge effort and money into the game and it would be selling all that short if the top level of the game didn't offer a way forward, which is why in my view it is important to properly look at expansion and at new areas. If there is no one in Oldham to step up to the plate, then that opportunity should be offered elsewhere, in my opinion.

Would the people of Oldham listen if the same amount of energy was put into the area by the RFL as they have done in expansion areas, are the RFL really bothered about sides like Oldham? Do the RFL feel Oldham could be better served with 3 or 4 good amateur teams?
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#104 The Parksider

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 05:58 PM

1. Yes, Sheffield, Featherstone and Halifax.Progress being made by all three clubs. Stay tuned for any future developments.

2. You are so two faced. How can you trumpet all the rich men who turned up at the various SL clubs, sometimes when they were in the Championships, but then deny rich investor support as being an avenue to success for any other team not from the anointed.


1, What progress?? What an empty statement that is. These clubs (which we all love and with respect) haven't made progress towards crowd bases big enough to work in Superleague. Widnes only added 50% after getting in SL. These clubs have academies but the only quality professional prospect was picked off by Leeds.

They're stuck in the Championship where you can't get a crowd or build a team.

If you think that's wrong then explain how you can?

2. You just won't listed or engage in the debate. here's an example. You argued Leeds had no junior base "In headingley" what rot. You were told not just by me that Milford are a spit away and Queens less than a 10 minute walk away. Yet you proceeded to bring the same line out again on this thread. Why do you do this?

I don't trumpet "rich men" at all, You don't listen. The bigger clubs have mostly had rich people with enough investment to make them even bigger, as a result the likes of Wigan, Saints, Leeds, Wire, Les Cats, Hull have grown into clubs turning over well in excess of £4,000,000 most of that doesn't come from the rich investor it comes from the business. Wakefield & Toulouse will try to follow that. Bradford will try again but with no rich man.

The championship clubs don't have any rich men willing to put anything in and they drift along on mainly sub £1,000,000 turnovers. There's a massive difference between investing in a big club where you end up achieving something and throwing £2,000,000 a year down a black hole. There are exceptions to the rule like Davey and Hughes (who says he's close to having had enough) but it's really daft to make the case that everyone's got the same chance of becoming a Super league club because rich men may just come and sweep them off their feet and close that turnover gap.

There's actually only one Ken Davey.

#105 JohnM

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:24 PM

Would the people of Oldham listen if the same amount of energy was put into the area by the RFL as they have done in expansion areas, are the RFL really bothered about sides like Oldham? Do the RFL feel Oldham could be better served with 3 or 4 good amateur teams?


Good question. And yes, the overall promotion of the sport is the RFLs responsibility though I guess it all depends what is meant by "bothered". 17 years have elapsed since the events of 1995 and in all that time, under whoever was running the RFL, some pro clubs have prospered and some haven't.

Is that all down to the individual clubs, or are some better at t doing thiis than others, or do some have territories, catchment areas that offer more potential. I reckon the latter is quite an important factor and thus properly set up and run clubs in London and Toulouse would represent a better use of resources. if the clubs themselves were any good. Which is not a certainty.


You are better placed than me to know the answer to these: do the good and ambitious amateur players aspire to play at pro level for their hometown clubs or for the nearest Superleague clubs. Do they maybe see Championship clubs as a stepping stone to SL?

#106 keighley

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 01:19 AM

1, What progress?? What an empty statement that is. These clubs (which we all love and with respect) haven't made progress towards crowd bases big enough to work in Superleague. Widnes only added 50% after getting in SL. These clubs have academies but the only quality professional prospect was picked off by Leeds.

They're stuck in the Championship where you can't get a crowd or build a team.

If you think that's wrong then explain how you can?

2. You just won't listed or engage in the debate. here's an example. You argued Leeds had no junior base "In headingley" what rot. You were told not just by me that Milford are a spit away and Queens less than a 10 minute walk away. Yet you proceeded to bring the same line out again on this thread. Why do you do this?

I don't trumpet "rich men" at all, You don't listen. The bigger clubs have mostly had rich people with enough investment to make them even bigger, as a result the likes of Wigan, Saints, Leeds, Wire, Les Cats, Hull have grown into clubs turning over well in excess of £4,000,000 most of that doesn't come from the rich investor it comes from the business. Wakefield & Toulouse will try to follow that. Bradford will try again but with no rich man.

The championship clubs don't have any rich men willing to put anything in and they drift along on mainly sub £1,000,000 turnovers. There's a massive difference between investing in a big club where you end up achieving something and throwing £2,000,000 a year down a black hole. There are exceptions to the rule like Davey and Hughes (who says he's close to having had enough) but it's really daft to make the case that everyone's got the same chance of becoming a Super league club because rich men may just come and sweep them off their feet and close that turnover gap.

There's actually only one Ken Davey.


1. In post #87 you argued that it s not all about attendances. Now apparently it is all about attendances.

Anyway Featherstone have greatly improved their stadium, have a successful team, run juniors, have some financing and their attendances are up substantially from when they were in CC1.They are making progress.

Halifax now play in a SL and World Cup standard stadium. They have a good team. They make a small profit. They run juniors. Their attendances are around the 2,000 mark. They are in way better shape then when they were relegated. They are making progress.

Leigh also play in a SL standard World Cup stadium.. They have a good team. They have juniors.Their attendances are increasing. They have overcome the loss of an investor. They are in better shape than when thye were bound for CC1 except to be bailed out by Gateshead. They are making progress.

I think they are slowly building their crowds and a team, no thanks to SL.

2. I played the Leeds card to get a rise out of you and it certainly suceeded. However, the fact remains, by your own admission, that there are no amateur teams within a 10 minute walk of Headingley. Now why won t you engage in debate on the fact that there are no amateur teams anywhere near the Broncos, more in Halifax than Huddersfield, very few in Salford and Bradford, yet it s alright to beat Oldham with that stick. Who is not listening ? I think it s you.

It s you who is not listening, again. No one is denying the success of the big four but all of them, at various times have needed financial help.

More importantly,many of the others found their financial saviour whilst they were in CC or even CC1 and yet you keep repeating the argument that this cannot happen again. In fact London were saved from extinction whilst in Div 2 when they were saved by Roy Close.

I am not saying every Cc club can find a big investor but you deny that any ever can when the evidence is to the contrary.

Furthermore the black hole is not reserved for Cc clubs. Please see Salford, Huddersfield, London, Hull KR, Widnes and Hull for examples.

Even more furthermore, the 2,000,000 tag is likely to decrease soon for at least h..alfof the Sl teams who cannot survive at that level of expenditure

And after all that Oldham is still a big enough town to support a SL team. It might never do so but London is big enough to support a SL team and it may not do so for much longer.The only certainties are death and taxes. Don t be so dogmatic in your refusal to coutenance any change in the status of Cc clubs.

#107 The Parksider

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 06:52 AM

1. Anyway Featherstone have greatly improved their stadium, have a successful team, run juniors, have some financing and their attendances are up substantially from when they were in CC1.They are making progress.

Halifax now play in a SL and World Cup standard stadium. They have a good team. They make a small profit. They run juniors. Their attendances are around the 2,000 mark. They are in way better shape then when they were relegated. They are making progress.

Leigh also play in a SL standard World Cup stadium.. They have a good team. They have juniors.Their attendances are increasing. They have overcome the loss of an investor. They are in better shape than when thye were bound for CC1 except to be bailed out by Gateshead. They are making progress.

2. Oldham is still a big enough town to support a SL team.


1. They are still small semi pro clubs with no money and low crowds.

2. Not enough of a junior base, no ground, few fans and no money.

Dream on

#108 roughyedspud

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:17 AM

is no2 aimed at oldham??

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#109 keighley

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 01:47 PM

1. They are still small semi pro clubs with no money and low crowds.

2. Not enough of a junior base, no ground, few fans and no money.

Dream on


Time will tell.Dreams are just that, some come true, some don't. Dreams are not always realised like your dream of a self sustaining fully pro SL, which is coming apart at the seams.

#110 saints10coach

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 04:05 PM

My point is that especially in the heartlands, if that correctly describes Oldham, people are not listening when it come to pro-rugby.
(I have to say, I was a full-time student at Oldham College from 1964 to 1968 yet do not recall much enthusiasm in teh town even then)

Isn't there a trend?

On Monday 15 September 1952, record receipts were taken from a gate of 19,370 at Watersheddings to watch Oldham take on the Kangaroo tourists. The Australians lost only one of twenty-two club matches in Britain during that tour, but came close to defeat at Oldham, where the Roughyeds held them to a 7-7 draw.

Oldham pleaded with the local council for a financial bail-out in April 1987. Oldham decided to float as a public limited company and sold their ground to council in May 1987

Oldham were supposed to merge with Salford to form a club to be known as Manchester, which would compete in Super League. This was resisted and instead they adopted the name Oldham Bears and were founder members of the new league (1996) Relegation came in the second year of the new summer season, 1997, when they finished below Paris Saint-Germain.

The club went to Oldham Council for help. Oldham Council bought Whitebank Stadium from Oldham Boro F.C. and then entered into a lease agreement with Oldham Roughyeds RLFC.


Despite the valiant efforts of the various owners, many managers, numerous players, loyal supporters and the Council Tax payers of Oldham, there is a pattern of long term decline with the occasional short term upward kink. In that time, it seems top me that no one with any real passion, power and purse-strings has come forward.

Now, contrast that with St Louis Rams v New England Patriots at Wembleytoday.Tickets at up to £90 each and I reckon also a decent crowd.

There are many people at the grass roots level who make sacrifices and put i huge effort and money into the game and it would be selling all that short if the top level of the game didn't offer a way forward, which is why in my view it is important to properly look at expansion and at new areas. If there is no one in Oldham to step up to the plate, then that opportunity should be offered elsewhere, in my opinion.

I could not let this one go by. Firstly no interest in Oldham when you were schooled there in 1964-68.
Let me bring your attention to the 1963/64 Challenge Cup semi v HullKR, drawn once, then abandoned second game whilst infront and finally beaten in the third game with attendances of 28,556, 27,209 and 33.003 respectively. 1966/67 Lancashire Cup Final against Wigan Att 14,193. So without digging out more facts, i would say there was interest in RL in the town then. Oldham did not ask for a bail out and then sell their ground in 87. That may have been the time when they sold their training ground, but the club was still thriving having got to another CC Cup semi the season before and made it to Old Trafford the year after to beat Fev in a divisional play off final. Watersheddings was eventually sold to a council holding company in 1995, for a much reduced price, under the promise of a new stadium for joint use with Oldham Athletic or a single use Stadium if they did not come on board. We Oldham fans are still waiting or did the council deliver with Whitebank?

#111 JohnM

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 04:46 PM

No need to let anything go by. This is a forum for the exchange of views so feel free.
1, I wasn't schooled in Oldham. I was educated full-time post A level at the age of 18 to 22 in the art and science of Electrical and Electronic Engineering.
2. During that time I was an active supporter of Swinton RLFC and an active, though rubbish, amateur player in Swinton
3. In no way do I dispute the facts you mention but I still do not recall much enthusiasm in the town. Certainly at the Oldham College of Further Education on Rochdale Road, all that you say must have passed us by.
4. The picture you paint is one of even further decline than I had imagined. You may find it worthwhile correcting the Club's entry in Wikipedia.
5. I would be as happy as anyone ( well, more or or less) to see a successful Oldham RLFC playing at any level, never mind the top level. It is great that so many people feel strongly about this too. It is just that is not going to be in SuperLeague, sadly as the story of the club over the last 20 or so years has shown that it is just not viable.
6. I'll do you a deal,though. Come back on here in 20 years time, prove me wrong and I'll roll my wheelchair across the pitch wearing nothing but an Oldham scarf. :o

#112 keighley

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 07:24 PM

I could not let this one go by. Firstly no interest in Oldham when you were schooled there in 1964-68.
Let me bring your attention to the 1963/64 Challenge Cup semi v HullKR, drawn once, then abandoned second game whilst infront and finally beaten in the third game with attendances of 28,556, 27,209 and 33.003 respectively. 1966/67 Lancashire Cup Final against Wigan Att 14,193. So without digging out more facts, i would say there was interest in RL in the town then. Oldham did not ask for a bail out and then sell their ground in 87. That may have been the time when they sold their training ground, but the club was still thriving having got to another CC Cup semi the season before and made it to Old Trafford the year after to beat Fev in a divisional play off final. Watersheddings was eventually sold to a council holding company in 1995, for a much reduced price, under the promise of a new stadium for joint use with Oldham Athletic or a single use Stadium if they did not come on board. We Oldham fans are still waiting or did the council deliver with Whitebank?


I was at the CC semi replay at Headingley against Hull KR wasn't it? Macyntyre, your hooker no less, got a 40 to 50 yard drop goal to equalise very close to full time. An amazing game.

When you look at that and the other parts of your post, it just shows what the potential is in Oldham for a successful RL club. It's a crying shame things went the way they did. Much of the latent support for RL in the town has probably ebbed away with the recent years of mediocrity. When the kids don t get involved, the fan base eventually erodes away.

I don't know what the future holds for a senior RL club in Oldham but I would love for them to regain even half of their former prominence and put the town backl on the RL map.

#113 saints10coach

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:29 AM

The upturn will only start to happen, when we get out of CC1 and make significant improvements to our playing venue. I too am a big believer in free speech, but I do not think it helps when people quote untruths about the team or town. That is why I attempted to correct the errors in John M's post. The Oldham club does have more than its fair share of knockers within the town without someone who visited 40 years ago telling us we still wear flat caps.

#114 roughyedspud

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:36 AM

well said :lol:

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#115 JohnM

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:44 AM

That is why I attempted to correct the errors in John M's post.
who visited 40 years ago telling us we still wear flat caps.


1. Have you corrected these errors on Wikipedia yet? Best correcting them, at source, don't you think?
2. I didn't "visit". I spent four fulfilling and happy years there.
3. Flat hats? Where did that come from? I used to pass Failsworth Hats, just on the Manchester side of the border on the No. 10 bus from Manchester and never saw a flat hat once.
3. Why does the club have more than its fair share of knockers in the town? It seems to me to be something that ought to be addressed.

#116 roughyedspud

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:01 PM

you posted things taken from wikipedia??? schoolboy error that john lol

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#117 The Parksider

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 04:49 PM

Time will tell.Dreams are just that, some come true, some don't. Dreams are not always realised like your dream of a self sustaining fully pro SL, which is coming apart at the seams.


Enjoy it whilst you can as the RFL/SLE prepare to restructure for 2015.

Restructuring Superleague will be easy, making small clubs big clubs when there's a distinct lack of people playing or watching the game is beyond a dream.

#118 JohnM

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 06:13 PM

you posted things taken from wikipedia??? schoolboy error that john lol


it was good enough for people to respond too, though. and STILL no one has corrected it so maybe it is right .

#119 The Parksider

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:09 PM

The upturn will only start to happen, when we get out of CC1 and make significant improvements to our playing venue. I too am a big believer in free speech, but I do not think it helps when people quote untruths about the team or town. That is why I attempted to correct the errors in John M's post. The Oldham club does have more than its fair share of knockers within the town without someone who visited 40 years ago telling us we still wear flat caps.


I greatly appreciate the points you make and of course an upturn is possible if there is any investment. Lord knows I've spent 47 years watching upturns at nearly every club in the league.

All the upturns I saw through the decades were based on some local businessman coming in as chairman to buy up the requisite journeymen players to "get some results" and wake the local fans up to the fact there's a rugby league club in town - often a famous one at that.

More money through the gates and things often went from there. Promotion to the top division being the aim To "play with the big boys".

Here's my list of smaller clubs who got to "play with the big boys" Barrow (won the lancs cup 1983) Sheffield (won the RL cup) Fev (won all sorts!!) Gateshead ( played superleague) Leigh (won cup and league under Murphy) Donny (first division) Dewsbury (were champs in 1973) Keighley (Cougarmania years) York (made an RLCC semi against Wigan) Blackpool (got to division one and beat leeds at headingley) Hunslet (twice in the top division) Workington (played Superleague) Oldham (played superleague)

I enjoyed every one of those fantastic upsurges.

But the investment was not enough, it did not last. The reality was the clubs didn't have the sustained levels of investment to keep things going. They often attracted "relatively" many more fans, but the "financial stimulus" was never enough to see enough quality players produced (few were really produced by these clubs, just bought in) nor enough paying fans to more than pay for the players these clubs had so there was extra to invest on improving the team further.

1996 saw a sea change that effectively prevented these upsurges. To get in Super league and stay there, to win an RL cup, or to be champions, suddenly needed your club to find far far far more money than was needed before. Then 2006 saw the second sea change whereby the top division had to actually want you to be there, and you had to offer more than a short burst of unsustainable success.

Oldham were once were what they once were, but to ever get back to the top again will take a Herculian task, and that task will be to produce quality players in numbers never produced in modern times. A couple of junior clubs won't do that, and to produce fans in numbers that have not been seen sine the days before Television.

Open a dozen successful junior clubs in the town and block the digital TV signals to all in Oldham and you just may one day get an SL club.

#120 roughyedspud

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:05 AM

we don't want a super league club.........


and name me one town that has a dozen successful junior clubs??? id say the 3 we have...waterhead,saddleworth & st anne are as many and as good as any town in british rugby league!..


christ it was only 3 years ago when oldham & its junior clubs produced 3 of a starting 13 for england in a test match...

Here's my list of smaller clubs who got to "play with the big boys" Barrow (won the lancs cup 1983) Sheffield (won the RL cup) Fev (won all sorts!!) Gateshead ( played superleague) Leigh (won cup and league under Murphy) Donny (first division) Dewsbury (were champs in 1973) Keighley (Cougarmania years) York (made an RLCC semi against Wigan) Blackpool (got to division one and beat leeds at headingley) Hunslet (twice in the top division) Workington (played Superleague) Oldham (played superleague)


fev "won all sorts"..........do yourself a favour and go look what oldham have won......my signature should give you a clue!

Edited by roughyedspud, 01 November 2012 - 08:09 AM.

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