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#161 shaun mc

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:54 PM

The failure of Oldham to use an example and the success of Castleford on the flip side. Oldham were relegated and could not afford the squad wages they had to play in SL. Cas were given a parachute payment to accommodate this. If Oldham had have been given a parachute payment, we would have probably gone on to compete after being relegated. remember in 97 when Oldham went bust, the proviso for our re-entry to the league was that we competed for our first season with no money whatsoever from the RFL. I cannot ever remember this being inflicted on any club, before or since.


Workington town also operated under those conditions that Oldham did plus more.
Were also relgated with expensive contracts in place and no parachute monies. No Sky or RFL monies either for at least 2 seasons possibly longer.
I'll also add that Town were also subject of a vote to kick them out of the RL family altogether for going into admin. Prescot were kicked out Keighley and Town were granted a pardon.
No other club has had all 3 scenarios and survived.

#162 The Parksider

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:06 PM


The failure of Oldham to use an example and the success of Castleford on the flip side. Oldham were relegated and could not afford the squad wages they had to play in SL. Cas were given a parachute payment to accommodate this. If Oldham had have been given a parachute payment, we would have probably gone on to compete after being relegated.


Sadly and with respect I am not sure that is fair.

Yes Castleford failed in Superleague and went down to the championship where finances allowed them to storm straight back to Superleague far too strong for the Championship.

But the story after that has been one of struggle and decline on larger gates than oldham ever got and with significant £££ help from Mr. Fulton which oldham could not find, and a very successful record on quality local professional players turning out greater numbers than Oldham.

Cas could not be more rock bottom than they are now with the best players being picked off and crisis talks. Using the self same comparison I'd have to conclude Oldham would be in worse straights.....

#163 saints10coach

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:46 PM

A man with money is not always the answer. They do not give it away. The benefit of having rich Directors is they can underpin the business with their own financial clout. The money they dole out comes at a cost and usually has massive interest attached to it. So when said rich director gets bored and goes, the debt owed is often quite larger than it would have been.
I know Hull KR have a backer, but you could see when they were in the Championship that they were gearing up for SL and this was done on a sound business plan more than the financial backing of a director. I can't remember if I stated this on the current thread or another. But I think they should bring 1 up 1 down promotion back, with the caveat that if the team finishing in the promotion spot does not meet ground criteria. Then they should remain in the lower division, but should receive 50% of the should have been relegated clubs funding for the next season. Only to be spent under supervision of the RFL on the aspects were they did not meet the criteria. Therefore bringing them closer to the standards for another attempt.

#164 keighley

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:49 PM

You conveniently confuse the failure of individual clubs, with an alleged failure of the system for selecting and creating the strongest division.

Relegating clubs automatically forces them to fail as Professional clubs, promoting skint clubs does the same.

Licensing does not provide any guarantees that clubs will succeed in SL, it merely picks the 14 clubs with the best chance of surviving. You won't engage in this point because it doesn't suit you.

It doesn't fail because clubs like Wakefield or Bradford fail.

It actually limits failure, whilst P & R promotes it.

Had P & R been in this year a rich club would have been forced into a league with a £300K cap and a poor club would have been set up to struggle badly.

Good old P & R - gives everyone a dogs chance.


I have no idea what your first paragraph means. Sounds like business speak gobbledegook to me.

The evidence is that licencing does not pick the best teams to suceed. Just look at the failures.

The evidence is that p and r has produced more SL clubs that have survived than licencing.

The evidence that relegating them forces failure is also sketchy as Salford, Castleford, Huddersfield, would seem to refute that theory.

If Widnes had been relegated, they would only have themselves to blame. They had two to three years when they knew they were virtually guaranteed a licence and did nothing to set up a team capable of competing in SL. This licencing guaranteed for 3 years promotes complacancy and a sense of entitlement without the requisite effort being put into preparing a team.

If Sheffield had been in the frame for promotion, then they would have A) found the financing and players to compete in SL OR B) Not done so, failed the standards required and not been promoted or C ) have voluntarily declined a SL place as did Gateshead in the Championship. It would have been up to the Sheffield club to decide which course of action they wanted to take.

Soccer, RU, Cricket, even Scottish soccer which is practically poorer than RL can and do operate p and r systems but we can't.
Are we that inept?

I know you are of the " Business is business" viewpoint whereby everything is fair if it safeguards the organisation but sport, whilst it is still business, has another element to it, which should reward sporting success and punish sporting failure if the financial side can also be accomodated.

People with your point of view constantly deride the state of the game when p and r was the norm but conveniently forget to include in tjhis derision the fact that the game at that time was operating without Sky money. In the few seasons we had with p and r with Sky money, it worked just fine.

#165 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 03:03 PM

No there was not. But they were not needed, as in those days the money was distributed evenly from top to bottom, so you did not have this massive void between divisions.

so notorious yo yo teams like leigh Oldham and others weren't being financially ruined by going up one year and down the next over the 22 years of auto p and r, and it was ok because all cluns got the same money. Would you say that the money spent on Chorley, Springfield, Prescott, Carlisle, Kent, Doncaster and others during the years of the money being 'evenly distributed' was money well spent? What did Rugby League as a sport get in return for it's massive investment?
This was one of the reasons why there was a breakaway Super League getting ready to be formed by the big clubs several years before the SKY version.
What do non SL clubs sget now from central funding?
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#166 Wanderer

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 03:10 PM

If Widnes had been relegated, they would only have themselves to blame. They had two to three years when they knew they were virtually guaranteed a licence and did nothing to set up a team capable of competing in SL. This licencing guaranteed for 3 years promotes complacancy and a sense of entitlement without the requisite effort being put into preparing a team.


As a Widnes fan I am happy that the club owners have decided to take a sustainable route to SL survival rather than a boom and bust scenario by seeking stability in playing personel, developing a youth system and only paying what can be covered by income streams. Somebody has to finish bottom. But will we next year? (At least there is a next year!)

Obviously the franchise system has allowed Widnes RLFC to cut their cloth accordingly with some degree of certainty as to what level they will be operating at and that I applaud!

#167 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 03:13 PM

I have no idea what your first paragraph means. Sounds like business speak gobbledegook to me.

The evidence is that licencing does not pick the best teams to suceed. Just look at the failures.

The evidence is that p and r has produced more SL clubs that have survived than licencing.

The evidence that relegating them forces failure is also sketchy as Salford, Castleford, Huddersfield, would seem to refute that theory.

If Widnes had been relegated, they would only have themselves to blame. They had two to three years when they knew they were virtually guaranteed a licence and did nothing to set up a team capable of competing in SL. This licencing guaranteed for 3 years promotes complacancy and a sense of entitlement without the requisite effort being put into preparing a team.

If Sheffield had been in the frame for promotion, then they would have A) found the financing and players to compete in SL OR B) Not done so, failed the standards required and not been promoted or C ) have voluntarily declined a SL place as did Gateshead in the Championship. It would have been up to the Sheffield club to decide which course of action they wanted to take.

Soccer, RU, Cricket, even Scottish soccer which is practically poorer than RL can and do operate p and r systems but we can't.
Are we that inept?

I know you are of the " Business is business" viewpoint whereby everything is fair if it safeguards the organisation but sport, whilst it is still business, has another element to it, which should reward sporting success and punish sporting failure if the financial side can also be accomodated.

People with your point of view constantly deride the state of the game when p and r was the norm but conveniently forget to include in tjhis derision the fact that the game at that time was operating without Sky money. In the few seasons we had with p and r with Sky money, it worked just fine.


if Parky will allow me:

put it this way-what caused the recent problems of clubs like Salford and Bradford were caused by the way the game is structured nowadays, or by particular circumstances relating to the clubs?

soccer is the biggest, richest t most powerful sport in the world: English soccer with its wealth and national spread of big clubs is one of the most rich and powerful members of that community.
soccer is Scotland's national sport
how comparable is that to UK Rugby League?
p and r isn't automatic anyway.

county cricket has auto prom and reg. How many people go to county cricket games? A few hundred? If that's what yhou want, then fine. County cricket is subsidised by the other versions of the game that attract big crowds and sponsors as well as TV money.

Rugby Union is far richer and more widespread than Rugby League. It doesn't have auto prom and reg to the top competition-clubs have been denied admission, and London Welsh only managed to get promotion(I wonder how long they will last) after an expensive legal battle.

For what seems like the thousandth time Rugby League doesn't have to face the same challenges and issues as other sports. so comparison is invidious-but hey carry on, and on with the notion that we are like premiership soccer and the rest.
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#168 keighley

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 03:46 PM

if Parky will allow me:

put it this way-what caused the recent problems of clubs like Salford and Bradford were caused by the way the game is structured nowadays, or by particular circumstances relating to the clubs?

soccer is the biggest, richest t most powerful sport in the world: English soccer with its wealth and national spread of big clubs is one of the most rich and powerful members of that community.
soccer is Scotland's national sport
how comparable is that to UK Rugby League?
p and r isn't automatic anyway.

county cricket has auto prom and reg. How many people go to county cricket games? A few hundred? If that's what yhou want, then fine. County cricket is subsidised by the other versions of the game that attract big crowds and sponsors as well as TV money.


Rugby Union is far richer and more widespread than Rugby League. It doesn't have auto prom and reg to the top competition-clubs have been denied admission, and London Welsh only managed to get promotion(I wonder how long they will last) after an expensive legal battle.

For what seems like the thousandth time Rugby League doesn't have to face the same challenges and issues as other sports. so comparison is invidious-but hey carry on, and on with the notion that we are like premiership soccer and the rest.


Fine, let the lower teams wither and die from lack of opportunity and lack of finances. Good luck with your ten team SL, two of whom are from France. The total strength of British Rugby League at senior level will be eight clubs. Someone will finish bottom of that lot and gradually sink to a lower level than the rest. get rid of them too, go to 7 british teams. Good luck with the England team picking from that small base. Good luck with producing players from the juniors with such a very few playing spots available

Do you really think Featherstone, Halifax, Leigh and others will last very long if they are in he CC forevermore.. Do you really think the SL will award any of them a SL licence?

Do you really think the limit of ambition for the new teams in CC1 is CC? A ring fenced SL will be the death of the game in this hemisphere.

There must either be p and r OR an expanded SL. The present status quo is unsustainable long term.

#169 saints10coach

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 03:52 PM

so notorious yo yo teams like leigh Oldham and others weren't being financially ruined by going up one year and down the next over the 22 years of auto p and r, and it was ok because all cluns got the same money. Would you say that the money spent on Chorley, Springfield, Prescott, Carlisle, Kent, Doncaster and others during the years of the money being 'evenly distributed' was money well spent? What did Rugby League as a sport get in return for it's massive investment?
This was one of the reasons why there was a breakaway Super League getting ready to be formed by the big clubs several years before the SKY version.
What do non SL clubs sget now from central funding?

YO YO teams were sustained, as after relegation they knew they were going to be involved in a promotion battle the season after. This was helped by the fact that in those days players were contracted to a club for a lot longer than one season, therefore the team you had was only changed gradually.
Wanderer please do not offer up Widnes up as an example. In my view they like Bradford and Wakefield, should not be were they are. When Widnes played Castleford at Headingley for promotion they had a planned move that if they lost they would go into receivership and wipe out all their debts. If they would have had as good a planned move on the field against Cas, they may have stood a better chance of winning the game. At the time this happened, the league constitution rules stated any team that entered receivership would be kick out and have to re-apply, therby entering at the bottom division. This in my opinion is what should have happened. But because Mr O'Neill came along with his wad the RFL changed the rules to accommodate.

#170 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 05:46 PM

Fine, let the lower teams wither and die from lack of opportunity and lack of finances. Good luck with your ten team SL, two of whom are from France. The total strength of British Rugby League at senior level will be eight clubs. Someone will finish bottom of that lot and gradually sink to a lower level than the rest. get rid of them too, go to 7 british teams. Good luck with the England team picking from that small base. Good luck with producing players from the juniors with such a very few playing spots available

Do you really think Featherstone, Halifax, Leigh and others will last very long if they are in he CC forevermore.. Do you really think the SL will award any of them a SL licence?

Do you really think the limit of ambition for the new teams in CC1 is CC? A ring fenced SL will be the death of the game in this hemisphere.
Hoe did GB fare against Southern Hemisphere teams between 1973-95? What spread of clubs supplied GB with the vast majotity of its players during this period?

There must either be p and r OR an expanded SL. The present status quo is unsustainable long term.

what opportrunity?
The only team I can think of that took the opportunity and made something of it in the entire 22 years of auto p and r was Wigan in their one seaason out of the top flight.

So it's all about Featherstone, Halifax and Leigh is it? Should all three of them be in Super League? All had some success pre SL, but all had major problems for most of the time with Halifax at one time trying to break the yo yo cycle by playing teams almost entirely of overseas players, and Leigh being the mosst notorious yo yo side of all.
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#171 keighley

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 06:52 PM

what opportrunity?
The only team I can think of that took the opportunity and made something of it in the entire 22 years of auto p and r was Wigan in their one seaason out of the top flight.

So it's all about Featherstone, Halifax and Leigh is it? Should all three of them be in Super League? All had some success pre SL, but all had major problems for most of the time with Halifax at one time trying to break the yo yo cycle by playing teams almost entirely of overseas players, and Leigh being the mosst notorious yo yo side of all.

As I recall, Hull, Hull KR, Huddersfield, Wakefield, Castleford, Salford and indeed Keighley for two seasons, got promoted and stayed up. Wigan are not the only success.

The trouble is the yo yo is stuck at the bottom of the string and there seems to be no repairing it because no one will take it to the repair shop. At least if you are yo yoing between the divisions there is a chance you can stop that cycle like Huddersfield did.

No, it's not all about the three clubs mentioned but they are the most likely candidates as we speak. The beauty of p and r is that none of those teams might win. It might be a complete surprise, as it was this season when Sheffield won it all.

Now you in particular get hung up on the concept of automatic promotion. Most supporters of the the process no longer support this. Most people accept that together with victory on the field, there is a necessity to meet some basic standards as well. This concept has been around for some time. Both Dewsbury and Hunslet for sure and Keighley, maybe were refused promotion because of failure to meet minimum ground standards. There are other criteria as well as you know.

If you kill the roots, the tree will die.

#172 The Parksider

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 08:40 PM

I have no idea what your first paragraph means. Sounds like business speak gobbledegook to me.

The evidence is that licensing does not pick the best teams to suceed. Just look at the failures.


Let's try to stick to one point until we agree or agree to disagree. This is what I mean.......

Wakefield were selected to be in Superleague 2009-2011 over Leigh.

The reasons were Wakefield had 7,000 crowds and the playing squad was on the up. in 2009 they finished 5th. and they had a series of great young GB born talents in their ranks. Ted Richardson was still keeping the finances going and they were a much better bet to operate in Superleague on a £4M+ turnover, and compete than.....

Leigh who had 2,400 crowds and had failed badly in Superleague only three years earlier. They lost 8 out of 18 games in the CC and the licensing commitee found they were well short of the money required to get into Superleague.

This was the right decision. Events saw Richardsons business collapse and Wakefield go into administration. The only way you can say the licensing committtee got it wrong is to explain how Leigh would have done better than Wakefield given their situation.

After all they spent every penny they had coming bottom of SL in 2005 with only two wins. Had the licensing commitee put them in again in 2009 why do you assume they'd have done any better?? It's not unreasonable to assume they'd have done even worse in 2010 and 2011 especially as their own "sugar daddy" ended up leaving just like Richardson.

Now in 2011 Bradford were selected to be in Superleague 2012-2014 over Haifax.

The reasons were Bradford had 14,000 crowds and the playing squad was introducing players like Addy, Bateman, Burgess, Whitehead, Kopzac, etc into Superleague. Whilst the committee said that they saw "challenges" for the Bulls financially........

They saw an "inadequate and incomplete" business plan at Halifax where the club were on gates of only 2,000. Halifax's last sojourn in SL with inadequate funding had seen the club come bottom in 2003 with no points. What was the licensing commitee supposed to do? Risk the same again for three years in a row?

They were forced to take Bradford and the challenge became overwhelming when the fans abandoned the club due to it's slide down the league. Even so this was the right decision.

Where you go wrong is arguing because two clubs could not manage to compete in a professional league of £4,000,000 turnovers the licensing committee should have not picked them for SL.

This is with respect wrong, the licensing commitee HAD TO PICK THEM because as I set out above the alternatives were far far worse.

Now I know you and others have often said that Bradford and Wakefield should have simply run to a policy of not spending beyond their income. That is again with respect simplistic and makes no sense at all. If clubs in financial trouble just cut their cloth radically then what happens is.........

They may end up with no points and their gates halved like Halifax 2003 who continued to slide towards administration anyway. Face the facts.

Or they may end up with 4 points and totally skint by the end of year one like Leigh 2005.

With respect I hope you can take the point this time.

Edited by The Parksider, 03 November 2012 - 08:07 AM.


#173 The Parksider

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 08:50 PM

As a Widnes fan I am happy that the club owners have decided to take a sustainable route to SL survival rather than a boom and bust scenario by seeking stability in playing personnel, developing a youth system and only paying what can be covered by income streams. That I applaud!


I do not applaud it. Like Mike Stephenson I condemn it.

The essence of Superleague is clear. It's an elite league now designed such that all clubs can spend the maximum cap and so compete evenly to throw up a variety of winners and losers over the years, and keep interest in the game up. It's based on the Australian model and that policy was confirmed by Hetherington the other month.

If Widnes fail to compete because they are not prepared to spend full cap then what are they doing in Superleague?

Padge got it right when he pointed to people who had riches and took their clubs into Superleague but baulked at the wage bill and were not prepared to cover it. It begs the question "if you cannot stand the heat stay out of the kitchen".

But before people start with the "you spilled my pint/had a go at my club" rubbish Mr. O'Connor has pledged to try to get Widnes operating to full cap from the clubs own income rather than his pocket over the three years of the licence. This is why licenses are GOOD. They give clubs time to develop.

They give smart businessmen the chance to make a business out of failed Rugby league Clubs.

C'MON YOU SMELLIES........

#174 The Parksider

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:02 PM

Most people accept that together with victory on the field, there is a necessity to meet some basic standards as well.


Yes that's absolutely true and guess what - only about 11 can do this, and when some Superleague clubs go bust (Wakey and Bradford), and other Superleague clubs have to commit the cardinal sin of failing to meet the salary cap in SL (HKR, Cas, Salford) it just goes to show you that the Championship clubs you keep harping on about for Superleague have no chance at all to meet the "standards" as they are currently set.

If bigger SL clubs cannot hack Superleague then why do you keep going on about smaller Championship clubs doing it??

#175 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:13 PM

As I recall, Hull, Hull KR, Huddersfield, Wakefield, Castleford, Salford and indeed Keighley for two seasons, got promoted and stayed up. Wigan are not the only success.

The trouble is the yo yo is stuck at the bottom of the string and there seems to be no repairing it because no one will take it to the repair shop. At least if you are yo yoing between the divisions there is a chance you can stop that cycle like Huddersfield did.

No, it's not all about the three clubs mentioned but they are the most likely candidates as we speak. The beauty of p and r is that none of those teams might win. It might be a complete surprise, as it was this season when Sheffield won it all.

Now you in particular get hung up on the concept of automatic promotion. Most supporters of the the process no longer support this. Most people accept that together with victory on the field, there is a necessity to meet some basic standards as well. This concept has been around for some time. Both Dewsbury and Hunslet for sure and Keighley, maybe were refused promotion because of failure to meet minimum ground standards. There are other criteria as well as you know.

If you kill the roots, the tree will die.

castleford were never relegated pre SL, the favt that Keighley went bdown again after two years kind of supports my case.
I alsao suggest you check the records of the other clubs you mention also.

I'm glad you have come to terms with your club's non admission to Super League. I think you'll find that there is a largish vociferous constituency for the reintroduction of auto prom and reg- and you yourself have given examples of other sports that you erroneously claim to have it.
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#176 The Parksider

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:26 PM

1. Fine, let the lower teams wither and die from lack of opportunity and lack of finances.

2. Good luck with your ten team SL, two of whom are from France. The total strength of British Rugby League at senior level will be eight clubs.

3. Someone will finish bottom of that lot and gradually sink to a lower level than the rest. get rid of them too, go to 7 british teams.

4. Good luck with the England team picking from that small base.

5. Do you really think Featherstone, Halifax, Leigh and others will last very long if they are in he CC forevermore..

6. A ring fenced SL will be the death of the game in this hemisphere.


1. Bramley and Hunslet withered and Bramley died. Guess what? Rugby league in Leeds is healthier than it has ever been.

2. Where do you get eight clubs from? The strong centers of Pro RL are in London, Hull, Bradford, Fartown, Leeds, Wakefield, Warrington, Saints and Wigan. It's nine.

3. In the NRL the bottom team doesn't "sink" it lives to fight another season. SL is using this model.

4. What small base?? The England team has always picked from the top clubs in 1992 at the world cup final Great Britain chose their side from eight top division clubs, same in 1978 at Bradford the team was picked from eight top clubs.

They never picked anyone from Keighley or Bramley,

5. No I personally don't. I see Wakefield possibly eclipsing Fev, Wigan overshadowing Leigh and Fartown/Bradford out muscling Halifax. Having said that these fine clubs are continuing to hold their own.

If they don't last then the SL clubs will take over their fan bases and local players just like in Leeds. Those SL clubs will be all the stronger for it just like Leeds are.

6. Utter drivel.

The NRL is ring fenced and it is the biggest Rugby league competition in the world, attracting mega dollars/

Ring fencing is good.......

You are trying to argue us back to 1952 or 1995, but It cannot wash can it when the NRL, the model the RFL are chasing - an Elite served by feeder clubs - is so darn successful.

Your quote "If you kill the roots, the tree will die" is just a slogan meaning what?

That the roots of Rugby League are Championship clubs??

They simply are not. Championship clubs serve small local followings who preferr the small club, or who are too far away from an SL clubs. Championship clubs survive on getting players from Superleague.

The REAL roots of Rugby League is the junior game we now see played all over the country, in schools, superb junior clubs many away from the M62, Colleges and universities. The roots have never been as strong...............

Edited by The Parksider, 03 November 2012 - 08:13 AM.


#177 The Parksider

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 07:22 AM

A man with money is not always the answer. They do not give it away.

The benefit of having rich Directors is they can underpin the business with their own financial clout.

The money they dole out comes at a cost and usually has massive interest attached to it. So when said rich director gets bored and goes, the debt owed is often quite larger than it would have been.

I know Hull KR have a backer, but you could see when they were in the Championship that they were gearing up for SL and this was done on a sound business plan more than the financial backing of a director.


No that did not happen. In 2006 the club had a fanbase of just over 2,000.

The directors put a lot of serious money (well into six figures) in and improved the ground and bought players the business itself could not afford. It's on record how much they put in over the years since then and now they can put in no more and the club has run the last season on a £500,000 loss.

There was no "sound business plan" at all. Hudgell and his partner did give it away, at least to date.

There's no sound business plan at Castleford, like HKR they cannot hold on to their best players. There's no sound business plan at Salford because it needed 8,000 fans - same at Widnes and neither got them.

Several clubs IN superleague can't afford Superleague and do not have sound business plans due to low levels of support. Add Fartown to that and you have five failing business plans.

Failing at five SL clubs who have crowds averaging at just under 7,000

Failing at clubs who have had large sums put into them from Davey, Hudgell, Wilko, and Fulton.

So how would Sheffield, Leigh, Halifax, Featherstone EVER hope to compete when they neither have anyone rich to put millions in which in itself doesn't work. nor any hope of pulling anywhere near 7,000 fans which in itself isn't enough.

This is what Lyndsay would say. He'd say Rovers should throw in with Hull at the KC, Fev and Cas should throw in at Newmarket, Leigh should throw in with Wigan, Widnes should throw in with Warrington, and the league should look abroad for new big clubs.

Don't shoot me I'm only the messenger.

Edited by The Parksider, 03 November 2012 - 08:02 AM.


#178 keighley

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:32 AM

1. Bramley and Hunslet withered and Bramley died. Guess what? Rugby league in Leeds is healthier than it has ever been.

2. Where do you get eight clubs from? The strong centers of Pro RL are in London, Hull, Bradford, Fartown, Leeds, Wakefield, Warrington, Saints and Wigan. It's nine.

3. In the NRL the bottom team doesn't "sink" it lives to fight another season. SL is using this model.

4. What small base?? The England team has always picked from the top clubs in 1992 at the world cup final Great Britain chose their side from eight top division clubs, same in 1978 at Bradford the team was picked from eight top clubs.

They never picked anyone from Keighley or Bramley,

5. No I personally don't. I see Wakefield possibly eclipsing Fev, Wigan overshadowing Leigh and Fartown/Bradford out muscling Halifax. Having said that these fine clubs are continuing to hold their own.

If they don't last then the SL clubs will take over their fan bases and local players just like in Leeds. Those SL clubs will be all the stronger for it just like Leeds are.

6. Utter drivel.

The NRL is ring fenced and it is the biggest Rugby league competition in the world, attracting mega dollars/

Ring fencing is good.......

You are trying to argue us back to 1952 or 1995, but It cannot wash can it when the NRL, the model the RFL are chasing - an Elite served by feeder clubs - is so darn successful.

Your quote "If you kill the roots, the tree will die" is just a slogan meaning what?

That the roots of Rugby League are Championship clubs??

They simply are not. Championship clubs serve small local followings who preferr the small club, or who are too far away from an SL clubs. Championship clubs survive on getting players from Superleague.

The REAL roots of Rugby League is the junior game we now see played all over the country, in schools, superb junior clubs many away from the M62, Colleges and universities. The roots have never been as strong...............


1. Hunslet v Leeds championship final attracted a full house to Elland Road. Hunslet V Wigan RL cup final was one of the best ever. Leeds had to be bailed out by Caddick and kow tow to RU to survive.
How can you say that Rugby League in Leeds is better than it has ever been.As we speak, the Rhinos are in pretty good shape but RL in Leeds is poorer for the decline of Hunslet and the loss of Bramley. I would hazard a guess the amateur RL in Leeds is nowhere near what it used to be either. I have not researched it but my gut feeling is that there are lot less amateur RL clubs in Leeds than there used to be.

2. If you think that London is a stronghold of PROFESSIONAL RL then good for you. I don't subscribe to that view. When the big greed inspired axe comes out and they trim the SL down to ten clubs, they will cut Hull KR, Castleford, Salford and who ? In my opinion either Widnes or London. They were within a haresbreath of doing it once before and there is no Lewis to stand in the way this time.

3. What a short memory you have. I give you South Sydney, North Sydney, Balmain, Newtown and Western Reds as examples of teams booted from the NRL. Their current lack of committment to expansion even in a time of unparallelled prosperity for the game in Australia dos't look so hot either.

4. On occasions the England team may have been picked from the top eight clubs but you need to ask the question " did the top eight clubs produce all those players or did they transfer a bunch of them in from Championship clubs"? who will not be there in the future.

Just to put you straight Terry Hollindrake, Geoff Crewdson,Nick Pinkney and Brian Jefferson have been picked for GB/England from Keighley and Derek Hallas was developed by Keighley before moving to Leeds and getting a GB cap. David Jeanes was a Keighley lad also and he got a GB cap. Roy Sabine played regularly for Yorkshire when they were a top level, just sub International, represenetative side. there were also several Welsh internationals who played for Keighley. Not a long list but it exists.

5. The point has been made before that when teams die their whole fan base does not just automatically transfer to the nearest other team You tried to make that argument with Oldham and Salford and Hull and Hull KR. When Huddersfield were operating on crowds of 400, I don't remember seeing a 5,000 increase in the gates of the successful Halifax club. When Bradford were pulling to 200 to Odsal i don't remember Keighley, who were busy winning promotion at the time getting the missing Bradford thousands to their ground. When Hull KR were in CC1 on crowds of just over a thousand I don't remember any 20,000 average attendances at Hull.

Leeds would be even stronger if they were playing a SL Hunslet two or three times a season and getting two or three extra 20,000 plus crowds to Headingley.

6. Utter drivel to you too. A ring fenced mini league of 10 with 8 British clubs will ultimately bore the spectators and, more importantly, the viewers and thus TV companies, and the results will be dire for the future of the game.
The NRL is much larger than 10 teams. their record is spotty but, overall, they are committed to expanding and admitting new teams not regressing to some unsustainable rump competition. Where do you think the NRL would be if they were still confined to having all their clubs in Sydney as they did in the past. I would suggest they would be in a lot of trouble.

Ring fencing is bad.

I am not trying to argue back to 1952 or 1995. I am sure the game would love to be attracting the attendances they were attracting in 1952, especially in Oldham, but there was only one huge 28 team division then just like the NRL but I am not advocating that.
In 1995, there was no Sky money. I am not advocating that we tell them to go take a hike.

Have you ever seen a schematic of a tree showing the root system mirroring the branch system above ground. If you cut the roots off the branches will die.
In RL there is a network of amateur teams, junior teams and semi pro CC teams underpinning the SL Branches. If you kill off the semi pro teams, interest in their area in RL will similarly wither, the people will not put their money into RL, they will not buy Sky TV for the RL, they will not encourage their children to play amateur RL, despite the success of SL teams in finding juniors, the supply of young players will
diminish.

The support for the International teams will also drop off. Not everybody who watches England comes from a SL area.

You can get a decent looking tree with not much root system but at the first high wind the tree will topple.

That is what I mean when I say if you cut off the roots the SL will die

#179 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:11 PM

1. Hunslet v Leeds championship final attracted a full house to Elland Road. Hunslet V Wigan RL cup final was one of the best ever. Leeds had to be bailed out by Caddick and kow tow to RU to survive.
How can you say that Rugby League in Leeds is better than it has ever been.As we speak, the Rhinos are in pretty good shape but RL in Leeds is poorer for the decline of Hunslet and the loss of Bramley. I would hazard a guess the amateur RL in Leeds is nowhere near what it used to be either. I have not researched it but my gut feeling is that there are lot less amateur RL clubs in Leeds than there used to be.

2. If you think that London is a stronghold of PROFESSIONAL RL then good for you. I don't subscribe to that view. When the big greed inspired axe comes out and they trim the SL down to ten clubs, they will cut Hull KR, Castleford, Salford and who ? In my opinion either Widnes or London. They were within a haresbreath of doing it once before and there is no Lewis to stand in the way this time.

3. What a short memory you have. I give you South Sydney, North Sydney, Balmain, Newtown and Western Reds as examples of teams booted from the NRL. Their current lack of committment to expansion even in a time of unparallelled prosperity for the game in Australia dos't look so hot either.

4. On occasions the England team may have been picked from the top eight clubs but you need to ask the question " did the top eight clubs produce all those players or did they transfer a bunch of them in from Championship clubs"? who will not be there in the future.

Just to put you straight Terry Hollindrake, Geoff Crewdson,Nick Pinkney and Brian Jefferson have been picked for GB/England from Keighley and Derek Hallas was developed by Keighley before moving to Leeds and getting a GB cap. David Jeanes was a Keighley lad also and he got a GB cap. Roy Sabine played regularly for Yorkshire when they were a top level, just sub International, represenetative side. there were also several Welsh internationals who played for Keighley. Not a long list but it exists.

5. The point has been made before that when teams die their whole fan base does not just automatically transfer to the nearest other team You tried to make that argument with Oldham and Salford and Hull and Hull KR. When Huddersfield were operating on crowds of 400, I don't remember seeing a 5,000 increase in the gates of the successful Halifax club. When Bradford were pulling to 200 to Odsal i don't remember Keighley, who were busy winning promotion at the time getting the missing Bradford thousands to their ground. When Hull KR were in CC1 on crowds of just over a thousand I don't remember any 20,000 average attendances at Hull.

Leeds would be even stronger if they were playing a SL Hunslet two or three times a season and getting two or three extra 20,000 plus crowds to Headingley.

6. Utter drivel to you too. A ring fenced mini league of 10 with 8 British clubs will ultimately bore the spectators and, more importantly, the viewers and thus TV companies, and the results will be dire for the future of the game.
The NRL is much larger than 10 teams. their record is spotty but, overall, they are committed to expanding and admitting new teams not regressing to some unsustainable rump competition. Where do you think the NRL would be if they were still confined to having all their clubs in Sydney as they did in the past. I would suggest they would be in a lot of trouble.

Ring fencing is bad.

I am not trying to argue back to 1952 or 1995. I am sure the game would love to be attracting the attendances they were attracting in 1952, especially in Oldham, but there was only one huge 28 team division then just like the NRL but I am not advocating that.
In 1995, there was no Sky money. I am not advocating that we tell them to go take a hike.

Have you ever seen a schematic of a tree showing the root system mirroring the branch system above ground. If you cut the roots off the branches will die.
In RL there is a network of amateur teams, junior teams and semi pro CC teams underpinning the SL Branches. If you kill off the semi pro teams, interest in their area in RL will similarly wither, the people will not put their money into RL, they will not buy Sky TV for the RL, they will not encourage their children to play amateur RL, despite the success of SL teams in finding juniors, the supply of young players will
diminish.

The support for the International teams will also drop off. Not everybody who watches England comes from a SL area.

You can get a decent looking tree with not much root system but at the first high wind the tree will topple.

That is what I mean when I say if you cut off the roots the SL will die


1. one game was in the 1930s, the other was in the 60s: do yoyu think these examples illustrate the general picture? The game is stronger in Leeds than it was because more people are watching it and more people are playing it.

2. London is a stronghold of the game in London. If you look at participation numbers in the South East it is the tip of a massive stronghold. It's a beleagured stronghold, like say Bradford and Salford are, but a stronghold nonetheless.

3. I'm given to understand that this year's grand final winners in the NRL are the Melbourne Storm: as in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

4. David Jeanes was an England Rugby Union international, Jefferson was a Union player. The problem is that the keighlkey area produces good rugby league players but with rare exceptions can't either sign them or keep them. How long has the club been in existence? And you can only name thjis handful of players who acivwed success whilst at Keighley.

5. You don't know much about the demography of Rugby League in Leeds do you? It's been discussed at length before. If you really want to we can go over it again.

6 the situation you describe is purely hypothetical.

In what way did the Rhinos 'kow tow' to Union? Do tell. Also as we speak the headingley pitch is now dug up forcing Carnegie to play games 'on the road'.
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#180 keighley

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 01:10 PM

1. one game was in the 1930s, the other was in the 60s: do yoyu think these examples illustrate the general picture? The game is stronger in Leeds than it was because more people are watching it and more people are playing it.

2. London is a stronghold of the game in London. If you look at participation numbers in the South East it is the tip of a massive stronghold. It's a beleagured stronghold, like say Bradford and Salford are, but a stronghold nonetheless.

3. I'm given to understand that this year's grand final winners in the NRL are the Melbourne Storm: as in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

4. David Jeanes was an England Rugby Union international, Jefferson was a Union player. The problem is that the keighlkey area produces good rugby league players but with rare exceptions can't either sign them or keep them. How long has the club been in existence? And you can only name thjis handful of players who acivwed success whilst at Keighley.

5. You don't know much about the demography of Rugby League in Leeds do you? It's been discussed at length before. If you really want to we can go over it again.

6 the situation you describe is purely hypothetical.

In what way did the Rhinos 'kow tow' to Union? Do tell. Also as we speak the headingley pitch is now dug up forcing Carnegie to play games 'on the road'.


1. I do believe that when Hunslet were a decent top half of the table club in the past that there were two Derbies with Leeds every year producing top attendances and two minor derbies with Bramley. Are you claiming that more people are watching RL in Leeds than when the three clubs each had a decent fan base. What is Leeds average, about 15,000 isn't it. When Leeds were on eight, Hunslet on six and Bramley on a couple of thousand, the numbers watching Pro RL in leeds were about the same then.

How do you figure more people are playing RL in Leeds than when the amateur game there was much stronger in the past than what it is today.?

2. If you read the previous posts correctly, it was being alledged that London was a stronghold of the PROFESSIONAL game. It is not. Furthermore, the astounding amateur growth in the Capital to which you are erroneously referring has very little to do with the broncos and very much to do with Sport England, the RFL development officers, the summer conference league as was, and some very dedicated enthusiasts.

3. So !. They have also just postponed expansion for another three years when they have tons of money and expansion groups in Queensland, North Coast and Perth with advanced plans for expansion teams pantking at the bit.

4. So what. They were ekither from keighley or produced as professionals by the Keighley club. Are you saying that when the England/GB team was selected from just a few top eight teams as was stated earlier that all those players were from the towns of cities of those top teams.I doubt it. In any event it was being alledged that there were no internationals produced by the Keighley club and I was just putting the record straight. Without Keighley, or any other smaller club, being in existence those players would not have been available for our international team and would have nmade it weaker. Featherstone, currently being dismissed as lower league trash by the powers that be have produced many, many top international players.

5. You just don't read the posts before you launch your invective, do you.? I was talking about Rugby league being stronger in the past when there was a strong Hunslet club. I was not referring to the present day demographics of the Hunslet area or the current strength or lack of it of the Hunslet club.The allegation was that RL in Leeds had never been stronger since the death of Bramley and the decline of Hunslet and I was pointing out that in the past it had been stronger than it is now.

6.At the moment it is hypothetical. If the top movers and shakers in SL get their greedy way it will soon move from the ranks of the hypothetical to being the reality.

Leeds had Headingley to themsleves for over a hundred years. They got themselves in financial trouble, had to be rescued by a RU man, Caddick, who forced them to let the Leeds union lot play at Headingley. They were forced into an amalgamation with union, Leeds Rugby or whatever its title is, they lost their independence and allowed the enemy access to their house. They kow towed to RU.
The relaying of the pitch will be to the mutual advantage of both RU and RL. Did you want them to do it when the Rhinos were playing and deprive the parent company of gate and TV revenue or would it not make more sense to dokit when the second division rugby team with gates of 1500 were playing. Use your common sense.It was a business decision.If the RU had not ruined the pitch in the first place, it might not even have been necessary.




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