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The pros and cons of club link ups


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#21 The Parksider

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 02:14 PM

I don't want people to shout from the rooftops saying that this is the best thing yo ever happen to the sport, because it isn't.

I just want people to see that this might just be a good thing for the game, and that it certainly isn't the death of Championship Rugby League.

Is a bit of perspective too much to ask for? It certainly appears that way on the Featherstone forum.


I was all set to give a considered reply but the war broke out so I'll post this evening, maybe hostilities will have ceased by then.

Edited by The Parksider, 24 October 2012 - 02:14 PM.


#22 LOWFIELD

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 03:13 PM

You belittled gav's on your club's 'forum' whilst knowing nothing about him or what he does or has done, or his background.


You really are blind to your own behaviour arnt you, your the one who belittled everyone on ther Rovers forum just for dareing to disagree with Gav whatever his name is. You made a statement his commitment blinds mine, well prove it

#23 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 05:41 PM

edit:

You really are blind to your own behaviour arnt you, your the one who belittled everyone on ther Rovers forum just for dareing to disagree with Gav whatever his name is. You made a statement his commitment blinds mine, well prove it


I don't have to

and the term 'blinds' your's or anyone else is not in my vocabulary.

committment transcensds diplomas, honours, certificates.

The Rovers 'forum' belittles itself repeatdedly-I gave two examples.

Gav Wilson-that's his name not 'whoever he is'- clue, it says so on his posts, posted perfectly logical, reasoned and civil thoughts on the subject on your 'forum',and was rubbished for it. He was incredulous about a comment you made about your neighbouring club on another thread and your response was the one quoted on this thread.

edit: on second thoughts, you are right-again! yes you've got one over on me. You are the bestest. Gav doesn't need me or anyone else to bull him up.

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 24 October 2012 - 06:53 PM.

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#24 RSN

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 06:27 PM

I was all set to give a considered reply but the war broke out so I'll post this evening, maybe hostilities will have ceased by then.


Think tomorrow may be a better time.

#25 LOWFIELD

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:16 PM

edit:

I don't have to

and the term 'blinds' your's or anyone else is not in my vocabulary.

committment transcensds diplomas, honours, certificates.

The Rovers 'forum' belittles itself repeatdedly-I gave two examples.

Gav Wilson-that's his name not 'whoever he is'- clue, it says so on his posts, posted perfectly logical, reasoned and civil thoughts on the subject on your 'forum',and was rubbished for it. He was incredulous about a comment you made about your neighbouring club on another thread and your response was the one quoted on this thread.

edit: on second thoughts, you are right-again! yes you've got one over on me. You are the bestest. Gav doesn't need me or anyone else to bull him up.

You dont need anyone to get one over on you, every time you post you make yourself look a complete clown

#26 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:30 PM

You dont need anyone to get one over on you, every time you post you make yourself look a complete clown

well spotted
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#27 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:58 PM

the OP is right to ask about pros and cons.
It's a question of balance


in many ways smaller clubs have been 'feeder clubs' fgor a large part of the history of the game in an informal way.
When players were bought and sold smaller clubs survived by selling quality talent to big clubs: when I think omy own club, it goes back to Hunslet's all four cups side, right through to Vic Darlison, Billy Stott, Tommy Smales, Gary Cooper, Vaughan Thomas, Terry Clawson, Steve and so on right up to Zak Hardaker.
The situation is different now in that it is formalised and it brings issues as well as benefits...jisrt as it did in the good old days

The balance of those benefits seems to be in favour as you would expect of the big clubs. They save money, keep on board a wide resevoir of talent that gets developed by some high quality coaches alongsise their own coaches.
The Championship/ Championship 1 clubs get to survive in a nightmare economic climate, and get to have talented players at little cost.

The main problem seems to be identity and for want of a better expression 'sovereignty'. I can understand this and it concerns me also.

But what sickens me is the judgmental shrieking from people who are lucky not to be in that position-depite sharing an income stream and sponsorship from an SL club.
'Selling yout soul' for crying out loud, boycotting clubs who have one of these arrangements-up to thrm I guess but how sanctimonious, especially considering that one of their club's major benefactors specialises in tax avoidance for the rich.

It's flawed, but well done for the smaller clubs for giving something a go.

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 24 October 2012 - 09:02 PM.

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#28 RSN

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:45 PM

I recall when Barrow AFC played Darlington in a home game when Darlington feared it may be the last game in the clubs historu due to financial troubles and I helped hold up a huge banner which read 'A football club is for life, not just for Business.' It received a fairly decent amount of attention on twitter from pundits and journalists. The same statement comes to mind in this situation but with RL clubs. Sport isn't a business in the eyes of the majority of fans, it never has and it never will be. This 'link up' removes many of the aspects why you support a club. I support my club because everything which goes behind it, the community, the fans, the local coaching and players and the way it is run to please fans. In this system you are removing the latter 3 which will result in the clubs loyal fans leaving and then the community will not get involved as you are basically being a branch of an SL club. You are basically removing the soul of clubs and what makes them clubs. There is a huge difference between a club and a business plan, I don't care about a business plan but I care about my club. The statement 'A football club is for life not just for business,' is very true and this system just goes totally against it.

This move has come about by an attempt to save money. What if it gets to the stage where these 'link up' clubs become so reliable on SL that they can't sustain by themselves and a cheaper alternative comes about? I think that the SL club will save money and won't really consider the history of other clubs as it isn't relevant top them. Rugby League is just turning into all about making money, which isn't what sport is about. You obviously need to make money to survive in this climate but is it really worth having a short spell of financially stability to sacrifice the soul and history of your club and lose independence. IMO no, but I can understand if you disagree its more of a matter of opinions rather than who's right or wrong.

#29 oldrover

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 10:13 PM

I recall when Barrow AFC played Darlington in a home game when Darlington feared it may be the last game in the clubs historu due to financial troubles and I helped hold up a huge banner which read 'A football club is for life, not just for Business.' It received a fairly decent amount of attention on twitter from pundits and journalists. The same statement comes to mind in this situation but with RL clubs. Sport isn't a business in the eyes of the majority of fans, it never has and it never will be. This 'link up' removes many of the aspects why you support a club. I support my club because everything which goes behind it, the community, the fans, the local coaching and players and the way it is run to please fans. In this system you are removing the latter 3 which will result in the clubs loyal fans leaving and then the community will not get involved as you are basically being a branch of an SL club. You are basically removing the soul of clubs and what makes them clubs. There is a huge difference between a club and a business plan, I don't care about a business plan but I care about my club. The statement 'A football club is for life not just for business,' is very true and this system just goes totally against it.

This move has come about by an attempt to save money. What if it gets to the stage where these 'link up' clubs become so reliable on SL that they can't sustain by themselves and a cheaper alternative comes about? I think that the SL club will save money and won't really consider the history of other clubs as it isn't relevant top them. Rugby League is just turning into all about making money, which isn't what sport is about. You obviously need to make money to survive in this climate but is it really worth having a short spell of financially stability to sacrifice the soul and history of your club and lose independence. IMO no, but I can understand if you disagree its more of a matter of opinions rather than who's right or wrong.

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#30 Padge

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 10:58 PM

Rugby League is just turning into all about making money, which isn't what sport is about. You obviously need to make money to survive in this climate but is it really worth having a short spell of financially stability to sacrifice the soul and history of your club and lose independence. IMO no, but I can understand if you disagree its more of a matter of opinions rather than who's right or wrong.


Its been about making money since, er let me think, oh yes, 1895, the problem is its been about making it and apart from a short post WWII spell its made none.

You don't need to make money in just this climate, you need to make it in every climate.

What is happening is that, for those clubs that want it, is the call for SL money to be spread around is actually happening, SL clubs are providing players, coaches and facilities to clubs who may never have access to people and facilities of that standard. The SL club aren't taking a cut in the business, they don't want a cut of beer and pie money, they do want to spread some costs and improve the throughput of RL players across the board, yes they hope they gain an advantage from it, then again the championship clubs are seeking to gain an advantage as well.

Maybe the championship clubs signing up are being realistic about where their future lies, maybe the ones not signing up are the only ones with true SL ambitions and don't talk the SL here we come crapolla to try make them look like something they are a long way off.

Like it or not, we live in the world of season 2013 coming up and not in the season 1895, 1913, 1973 or 1994. 1913 was a world away in RL terms from 1895 and 1973 was a solar system away from 1913, by 1994 the distance was heading to galaxy away from 1973 and exponentially we are now even further away, we are on the edges of the universe compared to 1994.

The departure from our past is accelerating, and if you try and turn around and go back you'll just find everyone else moving in the opposite direction.

Forget the past it is done, that doesn't mean forget history, don't think for one minute that dumping the past is dumping 'tradition', RL has a 'tradition' of dumping the past, We need to move forward, all of the time, moving forward means re-evaluating all the time where we stand (as a game, as clubs, as supporters) in the scheme of things.

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#31 LOWFIELD

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 11:00 PM

the OP is right to ask about pros and cons.
It's a question of balance


in many ways smaller clubs have been 'feeder clubs' fgor a large part of the history of the game in an informal way.
When players were bought and sold smaller clubs survived by selling quality talent to big clubs: when I think omy own club, it goes back to Hunslet's all four cups side, right through to Vic Darlison, Billy Stott, Tommy Smales, Gary Cooper, Vaughan Thomas, Terry Clawson, Steve and so on right up to Zak Hardaker.
The situation is different now in that it is formalised and it brings issues as well as benefits...jisrt as it did in the good old days

The balance of those benefits seems to be in favour as you would expect of the big clubs. They save money, keep on board a wide resevoir of talent that gets developed by some high quality coaches alongsise their own coaches.
The Championship/ Championship 1 clubs get to survive in a nightmare economic climate, and get to have talented players at little cost.

The main problem seems to be identity and for want of a better expression 'sovereignty'. I can understand this and it concerns me also.

But what sickens me is the judgmental shrieking from people who are lucky not to be in that position-depite sharing an income stream and sponsorship from an SL club.
'Selling yout soul' for crying out loud, boycotting clubs who have one of these arrangements-up to thrm I guess but how sanctimonious, especially considering that one of their club's major benefactors specialises in tax avoidance for the rich.

It's flawed, but well done for the smaller clubs for giving something a go.


Well there you have i,t no one can tell me were to spend my money, i i will not be spending it at any feeder club. Makes no difference to you because you will carry on as always and get your free pass to any game you like

#32 Padge

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 11:04 PM

Well there you have i,t no one can tell me were to spend my money, i i will not be spending it at any feeder club. Makes no difference to you because you will carry on as always and get your free pass to any game you like

So your answer to the problem of the game not having enough money is to give it less money, are you a bank manager.

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#33 Ackydave

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 11:07 PM

the zealots have spoken.

You have sold your soul, and if you think any different then you don't know what you are talking about.



let that be an end to it.

on the other hand these are the same people 'had it on good authority' that Crusaders were flown to away games by private jet when they were in the Championship, and who only within the last couple of weeks knew 'from a realiable source from within the club' that Salford were moving back to The Willows.

edit: of course there are caveats about this initiative as Tim2 quite rightly points out, but the reaction that you and others who can see the benefits of it have recieved from some circles-especially the one you mention is so deep in the backwoods it's suffocating in leaf mould.


If I'm a zealot, then so be it! I must be because you say so and because I don't agree with you. Don't treat me and other honest fans of my club with the obvious contempt you have for us. If you don't like what you hear, don't resort to this childish name calling.

When will you accept that a large number of (note, I didn't say "most" or a "majority" because you'd no doubt come back on that one with demands for me to prove it) fans are what they are. Their club comes first. Why do people support a particular club and not another? It's tribal, not intellectual. I'm no different from others on that or this thread in stating my opposition to this scheme...now get me my shotgun; I'm off hunting bears.....

#34 Johnoco

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 11:08 PM

I recall when Barrow AFC played Darlington in a home game when Darlington feared it may be the last game in the clubs historu due to financial troubles and I helped hold up a huge banner which read 'A football club is for life, not just for Business.' It received a fairly decent amount of attention on twitter from pundits and journalists. The same statement comes to mind in this situation but with RL clubs. Sport isn't a business in the eyes of the majority of fans, it never has and it never will be. This 'link up' removes many of the aspects why you support a club. I support my club because everything which goes behind it, the community, the fans, the local coaching and players and the way it is run to please fans. In this system you are removing the latter 3 which will result in the clubs loyal fans leaving and then the community will not get involved as you are basically being a branch of an SL club. You are basically removing the soul of clubs and what makes them clubs. There is a huge difference between a club and a business plan, I don't care about a business plan but I care about my club. The statement 'A football club is for life not just for business,' is very true and this system just goes totally against it.

This move has come about by an attempt to save money. What if it gets to the stage where these 'link up' clubs become so reliable on SL that they can't sustain by themselves and a cheaper alternative comes about? I think that the SL club will save money and won't really consider the history of other clubs as it isn't relevant top them. Rugby League is just turning into all about making money, which isn't what sport is about. You obviously need to make money to survive in this climate but is it really worth having a short spell of financially stability to sacrifice the soul and history of your club and lose independence. IMO no, but I can understand if you disagree its more of a matter of opinions rather than who's right or wrong.


Let me get this right....you are claiming Rugby League is 'all about making money', yet give a football club as an example of honourable endeavour and fighting against big business?

:D :D :D :D

You couldn't make it up, except you just did.

#35 Ackydave

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 11:55 PM

Let me get this right....you are claiming Rugby League is 'all about making money', yet give a football club as an example of honourable endeavour and fighting against big business?

:D :D :D :D

You couldn't make it up, except you just did.


Whoooosh! I think the point that Barrowraiderskid was making just flew right over your head.

#36 Johnoco

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 12:05 AM

Whoooosh! I think the point that Barrowraiderskid was making just flew right over your head.


No it didn't whatsoever. It was the 'sports clubs are not businesses' routine. Then he uses football as a great example. Perhaps Man Utd or Liverpool have morphed into charities overnight but they are definitely businesses, perhaps you think their share price indicates otherwise?

Fear not though, because Rugby League can exist in a vacuum unaffected by modern business issues.

#37 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:37 AM

Well there you have i,t no one can tell me were to spend my money, i i will not be spending it at any feeder club. Makes no difference to you because you will carry on as always and get your free pass to any game you like


and nobody is trying to tell you how to spend it.
What are your views on comanies that specialise in tax avoidance doe the rich

presumably you object on moral grounds to your club sharing a lottery with and being sponsored by Leeds Rhinos.

Yet again you know nothing of my financial contribution to my own club, or my practical contribution to other clubs and it's none of your or anybody elses business. Do you have to pay to go to work?
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#38 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:46 AM

If I'm a zealot, then so be it! I must be because you say so and because I don't agree with you. Don't treat me and other honest fans of my club with the obvious contempt you have for us. If you don't like what you hear, don't resort to this childish name calling.

When will you accept that a large number of (note, I didn't say "most" or a "majority" because you'd no doubt come back on that one with demands for me to prove it) fans are what they are. Their club comes first. Why do people support a particular club and not another? It's tribal, not intellectual. I'm no different from others on that or this thread in stating my opposition to this scheme...now get me my shotgun; I'm off hunting bears.....


if you want childish name calling check the output of 'Lowfield'. If you want contempt check out the same person's treatment of Gav Wilson on your club's 'forum'.
I've supported my club for over 50 years, worked for it full time unpaid in various roles for 23 of those(again it pains me to say that), so don't lecture me about 'tribalism'.
In case you didn't notice I expressed what I thought were the shortcomings of the scheme in a previous post.
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#39 Robin Evans

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:06 AM

and so it goes on.... and on.... and on.... and on.......
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#40 Dave T

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:19 AM

I think it is far too easy for some people to dismiss money as being important in sport.

Keeping a sports club alive is often left to one or two people to pump in thousands and thousands (often millions) of pounds of their own cash.

Sometimes, I think fans have a bit of a cheek. BTW - I include myself in this as I have criticised investors, directors etc. in the past.




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