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Wales v England, Wrexham. 27/10/2012 K.O. 2.30pm


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#121 Johnoco

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:23 AM

Call me negative, I don't care anymore, but the sad irony is that those of you who think rubbish like today is positive for the international game are the ones who will hold this game and the countries like Wales back. Lets have the soundbites about playing against better players makes you a better player. It doesn't. Nobody learns anything from an 80-12 scoreline. Accept it and you'll always get it. And we'll have threads like this next year, the year after that and the year after that......


So where's your solution? Is the alternative not playing at all? Bring back a pretend GB team?

It doesn't seem to matter what the RFL try, people like you will always find a reason to rubbish it. I could genuinely understand this if in the past GB had played every game under mass hysteria with locked doors, but they didn't. Apart from a bit of a surge in the late 80's/early 90's crowds were abysmal internationally- look at the 'crowd' for the 1972 WC final under the sacred GB...now that is ###### embarrassing, and with such legendary players too. The KIWI tour of 1971 that attracted a total of about 8-10K spectators...in total!! Jesus.

The GB/Aus series of 2003 was a 3-0 series win to the Aussies. But every game went to the wire and could have gone either way with each game being close, did this result in a load of positive 'bloody good series that' type analysis? Did it balls. It was yet more evidence that we should give up because we will never beat them.

Well check this, it's not being 'realistic'. It's moaning.

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#122 OMEGA

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 02:22 AM

Arguably a better England team sat on the sidelines today.

Tomkins
Briscoe
Atkins
Reed
Broughton
Widdop
Brough
Crabtree
Roby
Graham
Westwood
S Burgess
Harrison

Ratchford/Lomax
Farrell
Carvell
L Burgess


#123 snapski

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:09 AM

Think you forgot a certain Mr Chase. Whether you like it or not he's in Macarena's plans. If fit he will be in the squad next year.

Edited by snapski, 28 October 2012 - 07:10 AM.


#124 South Wakefield Sharks

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:26 AM

I was being sarcastic. But.......If the players you mention were English then how many of them do you reckon would stand a chance of making the England team ?

Look, as I said on the France v Wales thread last week, I'm not having a go at the Welsh lads, they're a team of triers who play with a bit of pride. But why do people try to build them up to be something they're not ? There's a massive difference between being a team representing a country and being and international class team.

I'm a Cumbrian and I guarantee you I could pick a Cumbria team that would comfortably see off Wales (and we haven't got a SL club either). But i wouldn't claim Cumbria to be a powerhouse of the game worthy of any kind of status, even if we have got some 'promising players'. So what's the point of today's game ? What positive did either team get from it ?

International RL won't progress with such one-sided mismatches. Wales shouldn't give up, of course they shouldn't, but they should be playing at the right level of competition and England isn't it. They are being used as sacrificial lambs to the slaughter, and I wouldn't mind if that gave England a chance in 2013. But neither team is any further forward after today.

Some people will no doubt read what they want to read and see my comments as anti-Wales or whatever, but if you look closer you will see that I am saying that Wales should not be put into the situation that we had today. They will progress and they will develop, but not by playing matches against much superior opposition. The international game should be structured, divisionalised even, and teams like Wales, PNG, France. Samoa etc should fight for the right to test themselves against the Big 3 every couple of years. Again, this is not a criticism of where Wales are - its a criticism of a system that forces them to play one-sided games in the supposed cause of international RL. If today is international RL then its no surprise that nobody turns up to watch it anymore. Wales weren't bad, they tried their best and worked their butts off, but it isn't enough at this level. I felt sorry for them having to go through this.

Call me negative, I don't care anymore, but the sad irony is that those of you who think rubbish like today is positive for the international game are the ones who will hold this game and the countries like Wales back. Lets have the soundbites about playing against better players makes you a better player. It doesn't. Nobody learns anything from an 80-12 scoreline. Accept it and you'll always get it. And we'll have threads like this next year, the year after that and the year after that......


There are some strange people on here!!

For those of us who actually enjoy rugby league and want to watch competitive, top level international league, then we need to continue the way we are going. The international game has grown significantly since the 2000 World Cup and still has lots of room for future growth bring more, players, money and publicity to the game, as well as providing lots of enjoyable moments for those of us who like rugby league, and I guess lots of moments for those who like to moan about rugby league.

The facts are that Australia & NZ are top of the pile, England just behind and then a long way behind come the Pacific Nations, France & Wales, and then behind them come the rest. When the World Cup comes around things alter slightly, as a number of players who don't usually want to play international rugby, put their hand up for various heritage countries(eg Shaun Berrigan in the frame for Italy in 2013).

England need to help France & Wales be more competitive at international level. They are the best hopes in the northern hemisphere, but those two nations need to play quality opposition if they are to improve and that means England.

If you actually go to some of these games and talk to people, you don't hear the French or Welsh fans saying they don't want to play England, that they would rather play Scotland or Ireland. You don't hear the players saying that they would rather play against teams dominated by championship players, rather than the elite of the super league.

Of the two squads listed in yesterday's programme, 18/25 for Wales were 24 or younger, for England it was 12/25. The Welsh 'old hands' included the likes of Christian Roets & Owain Brown (NW Crusaders), Jordan James (Salford) and Neil Budworth (Mackay Cutters & Ex London). The English 'old hands' included Gareth Ellis, Adrian Morley, Kevin Sinfield, Rob Burrow and Sean O'loughlin.

There is no comparison. By the time the 2017 World Cup comes around, most of the Welsh squad will still be younger than those 5 English players, but they'll have another 5 years of experience under their belt, and there will have been some more come through by then.

The view of the Aussies 10 years or so ago was that England/GB were so far behind that it wasn't worth bothering with. Fortunately Richard Lewis stuck to his guns and conjured up one way or another for us to play them. We've improved since then, maybe not enough - we'll see next November.

The present international scene is far from ideal but it's an awful lot better than it was in 2000, and with the constraints there are in rugby league, it's probably the best we can get at the moment. A successful World Cup next year is the next big opportunity to change the landscape in a significant way.

#125 The Parksider

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:59 AM

There are some strange people on here!!

For those of us who actually enjoy rugby league and want to watch competitive, top level international league, then we need to continue the way we are going. The international game has grown significantly since the 2000 World Cup and still has lots of room for future growth bring more, players, money and publicity to the game, as well as providing lots of enjoyable moments for those of us who like rugby league, and I guess lots of moments for those who like to moan about rugby league.

The facts are that Australia & NZ are top of the pile, England just behind and then a long way behind come the Pacific Nations, France & Wales, and then behind them come the rest. When the World Cup comes around things alter slightly, as a number of players who don't usually want to play international rugby, put their hand up for various heritage countries(eg Shaun Berrigan in the frame for Italy in 2013).

England need to help France & Wales be more competitive at international level. They are the best hopes in the northern hemisphere, but those two nations need to play quality opposition if they are to improve and that means England.

If you actually go to some of these games and talk to people, you don't hear the French or Welsh fans saying they don't want to play England, that they would rather play Scotland or Ireland. You don't hear the players saying that they would rather play against teams dominated by championship players, rather than the elite of the super league.

Of the two squads listed in yesterday's programme, 18/25 for Wales were 24 or younger, for England it was 12/25. The Welsh 'old hands' included the likes of Christian Roets & Owain Brown (NW Crusaders), Jordan James (Salford) and Neil Budworth (Mackay Cutters & Ex London). The English 'old hands' included Gareth Ellis, Adrian Morley, Kevin Sinfield, Rob Burrow and Sean O'loughlin.

There is no comparison. By the time the 2017 World Cup comes around, most of the Welsh squad will still be younger than those 5 English players, but they'll have another 5 years of experience under their belt, and there will have been some more come through by then.

The view of the Aussies 10 years or so ago was that England/GB were so far behind that it wasn't worth bothering with. Fortunately Richard Lewis stuck to his guns and conjured up one way or another for us to play them. We've improved since then, maybe not enough - we'll see next November.

The present international scene is far from ideal but it's an awful lot better than it was in 2000, and with the constraints there are in rugby league, it's probably the best we can get at the moment. A successful World Cup next year is the next big opportunity to change the landscape in a significant way.


Excellent post.

The problem is there's no professional Welsh teams, yet many delighted at Crusaders demise.

At least the link ups between scorpions and crusaders with SL clubs give hope.

I was astounded to see a live "home international" on terrestrial TV. surely that is a tremendous achievement for the game.

Edited by The Parksider, 28 October 2012 - 08:59 AM.


#126 John Rhino

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:15 AM

I was astounded to see a live "home international" on terrestrial TV. surely that is a tremendous achievement for the game.


Yes, and we got home after watching a good game of rugby in time to see a very positive review of the game on bbc news at ten.

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#127 keighley

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:28 AM

I hope results like that don't have a negative effect on the ticket sales for the Welsh home games in the WC. It also is important that the Welsh get to, at least the quarter finals. Results like that make myou wonder of they will beat a Aussie heritage loaded Italy team.

#128 John Rhino

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:39 AM

Results like that make myou wonder of they will beat a Aussie heritage loaded Italy team.


The game is damaged more by the Italians being a team full of ageing Australians than the Welsh losing.

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#129 Chronicler of Chiswick

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 10:30 AM

To me, Wales were worse than in last season's games against England and Australia, although their morale probably wasn't helped by watching their coach on BBC Breakfast on Friday effectively saying that they were going to get hammered. Never been convinced about Isetyn Harris as a head coach, I've more seen him as an assistant - a view reinforced yesterday. Never mind, it was a pleasant afternoon in the sun in the Yale Paddock.

#130 Dave T

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 10:41 AM

We've had live terrestrial tests at home for the past few years now, not sure why people continue to be staggered by this.

Ive watched us on the BBC play the Aussies twice and the Welsh twice live and highlights every year.

#131 southstand loiner

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:02 AM

its about what i expected with full time players against in the main part timers the fitness issue was always goning to be there as was the difference in skills .
even though you cant take to much out of the game you could see that england looked more organised than they have looked for a long time with more good options been taken and players who really seemed to have gelled as a team .
ah a sunday night in front of the telly watching old rugby league games.
does life get any better .

#132 Wolford6

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:03 AM

We need to do well in the World Cup to push the game forward in Wales.

Iestyn needs to: -
- get on a plane to Australia and grab at least half a dozen heritage players ... we are desperate for two centres and a loose forward.
- get Lloyd White to threaten Rhys Hanbury with a baseball bat unless he turns up some Welsh ancestry to match his name.
- practice Ben Flower playing in the centre in training at Wigan. He can tackle and run hard; which is better than that London centre offered on Saturday.

The backs are of more concern than the forwards. We've got Jordan James and Craig Kopczak that can do a stint in the second row at a push. We've got Jake Emmitt and Gil Dudson as two good props plus Tyson Frizzell as a mainstay second row and and Ben Evans who has looked good in parts.. I'd play Lloyd White at loose forward and, if we got some decent halfbacks, we could play Matt Seamark and Neil Budworth as exchange hookers.
Let's shore up the defence first for every game and let loose on the flair after the early pressure has subsided.

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#133 OMEGA

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:23 AM

Think you forgot a certain Mr Chase. Whether you like it or not he's in Macarena's plans. If fit he will be in the squad next year.


Didn't forget at all, neither did I forget Heighington or Manu

#134 Ant

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:01 PM

So where's your solution? Is the alternative not playing at all? Bring back a pretend GB team?

It doesn't seem to matter what the RFL try, people like you will always find a reason to rubbish it. I could genuinely understand this if in the past GB had played every game under mass hysteria with locked doors, but they didn't. Apart from a bit of a surge in the late 80's/early 90's crowds were abysmal internationally- look at the 'crowd' for the 1972 WC final under the sacred GB...now that is ###### embarrassing, and with such legendary players too. The KIWI tour of 1971 that attracted a total of about 8-10K spectators...in total!! Jesus.

The GB/Aus series of 2003 was a 3-0 series win to the Aussies. But every game went to the wire and could have gone either way with each game being close, did this result in a load of positive 'bloody good series that' type analysis? Did it balls. It was yet more evidence that we should give up because we will never beat them.

Well check this, it's not being 'realistic'. It's moaning.


Absolutely spot on that.

The 2003 series was as good as it gets for viewing spectacle other than us actually winning.

There was nothing on those game, by my memory at least two of them were literally won on the last play of the game by Lockyer being truly, truly briliant.

But I also remember people moaning about venues, small crowds and of course losing 3-0

But the Aussies damn well knew they had dodged a bullet. And the games I went to were astonishing atmospheres

I didn't go to the game on Saturday but watching it I saw a Wales team trying hard, with some real touches of class at times but they were young and outgunned by an England team that were:

Superbly led by Sinfield as captain

Utterly dominant in the forwards - our back row options are as good as anything else in the world and out with all the front row options available the front row is a match for any too

Our 3/4 line looked very classy. Watkins is big, fast and strong. Possiby our answer to GI. Lets see how they stop him in full flight. Cudjoe showed guile and awareness to put Hall in and worked hard off the ball all game and in Hall and Charnley we have two of the best finishers I've seen in a long time

At fullback Tomkins has to be worried with the pace, vision and ability of hardacre. Two genuinly exciting young fullbacks competing to play against Aus. That's just exciting all over.

At halfback while Sinfield might not be the best he is a leader and competitor from top to bottom. Any other shortcoming he has are far more made up by his leadership - to compliment him we have an embarrassment of riches depending how we want to go. Brough, Myler, Lomax, Chase all bring real positives and we will all have our faveourites

Whichever way you cut it we have THE best international set up I can remember in all my years of watching and come next year I'm going to be going mental in the support of English Rugby League

The doom merchants can stay at home.


#135 Keith T

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:26 PM

The Welsh may have got something out of yesterdays game for the future but what did England get out of it? Of course our players looked good because they were playing against Championship 1 semi-professional players and the scoreline reflected that just as a Super League team would do against a Championship 1 team in the Challenge Cup.

I sat watching it thinking to myself that if that was a good job we weren't playing the Aussies or the Kiwis. England would have had a better run-out against our own England Knights team in a proper trial game that meant something by players playing for a place in the national team against people who currently hold the jersey.

What exactly are the Knights gaining by playing Ireland and Scotland, more Championship(s) players, other than having a bonding get together? Why don't the four nations - France, Ireland, Scotland and Wales - play a tournament, whilst England play the Knights and then a combined team from the four nations takes on the England team selected from the trial game. I could see more value from that.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#136 keighley

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:47 PM

The Welsh may have got something out of yesterdays game for the future but what did England get out of it? Of course our players looked good because they were playing against Championship 1 semi-professional players and the scoreline reflected that just as a Super League team would do against a Championship 1 team in the Challenge Cup.

I sat watching it thinking to myself that if that was a good job we weren't playing the Aussies or the Kiwis. England would have had a better run-out against our own England Knights team in a proper trial game that meant something by players playing for a place in the national team against people who currently hold the jersey.

What exactly are the Knights gaining by playing Ireland and Scotland, more Championship(s) players, other than having a bonding get together? Why don't the four nations - France, Ireland, Scotland and Wales - play a tournament, whilst England play the Knights and then a combined team from the four nations takes on the England team selected from the trial game. I could see more value from that.


The Welsh and Irish need the exposure to this level so that they can improve or assess their position. These games are important to them. The Irish need to find so me decent heritage Aussies or else the game in Limerick will be a lot more embarassing of a score line than was that in yesterdays game. The game should be a promotional tool for Irish RL, not a complete turnoff.

Having said that,given the wealth of talent seemingly available to England, a trial match, would also seem to be a good idea. It should generate a good attendance also.

#137 Johnoco

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 02:59 PM

Having said that,given the wealth of talent seemingly available to England, a trial match, would also seem to be a good idea. It should generate a good attendance also.

Do you honestly believe that though? Because I can hear the reasons for not attending already.

Pointless.
McBanana is a clown.
We should be playing the Aussies or Kiwis (despite them refusing to play us)
Bring back GB.
Farce.
Laughing stock.

Repeat for next 20 years or until new coach takes over.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

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#138 South Wakefield Sharks

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 03:05 PM

Can't see England v England Knights being any sort of success commercially. Who would go and watch it and who would want to pay broadcast rights to it? Wales were below their best yesterday and England played very well - too often England have big gaps where they go off the boil. That didn't happen yesterday.

Iestyn Harris has made it clear today that he doesn't think his players did themselves justice and that they need to step it up if they want to be in the World Cup squad.

There is a lot more to being an international player than simply doing well for your club, getting a shirt and then it all happening. All the comments from players in the last year or so confirm that they feel the England set up is really good, full squad and Knights. Players WANT to be part of it. It was only back in 2008 at the World Cup when big chunks of the sqaud (Saints & Leeds players) weren't having anything to do with each other. Compare that to the body language of Josh Charnley & Zak Hardaker when Josh scored his first try on Saturday.

Next season we'll see virtually every player in either the England or Knights squad, or on the fringes bust a gut to get in the England World Cup squad, previous World Cups, you got the feeling a lot of players couldn't be bothered. A number of England players declared for Ireland in 2000 and Jason Robinson jacked it all in before the World Cup. Can't see Sam Tomkins jumping ship before next year's World Cup.

The 2013 World Cup is a big incentive for players to be part of our game. Who wouldn't want to be part of it, and when Lee Briers dusts down his international boots one last time next autumn, remember you heard it here first!!!

#139 thirteenthman

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 03:31 PM

The Welsh and Irish need the exposure to this level so that they can improve or assess their position. These games are important to them. The Irish need to find so me decent heritage Aussies or else the game in Limerick will be a lot more embarassing of a score line than was that in yesterdays game. The game should be a promotional tool for Irish RL, not a complete turnoff.


Of course, the Irish had quite a few talented 'heritage' players in their squad before the GB team was disbanded and those players decided to throw their lot in with England.

The Irish genuinely worry me with regards to next year's WC. Being put in a group with Engalnd and Australia is going to do them no favours. There are a few teams whose position in next years tournament appears to be based on past glories rather than how they're performing now. Hopefully before the next WC we can get proper qualifying tournaments sorted.

As for Wales, well I'm not sure I agree with the line that they will benefit long term from losing to England by 80 points. I'm not convinced any team at any level benefits from that sort of hiding. But, unlike Ireland, they are at least in a group for next years WC where they have a realistic chance of qualifying. And reading about some of the names the Italians are apparently lining up for 2013, that first game between those two could be a good 'un.

#140 southstand loiner

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 03:58 PM

a tour by png would have been of more use to england and france with wales playing in theother comp against scotland ect
ah a sunday night in front of the telly watching old rugby league games.
does life get any better .




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