54 replies to this topic

[The Parksider]

On that basis we might as well cull Castleford, Widnes, Salford, Broncos, Huddersfield and probably Wakefield. Nonsense.

Cas are in crisis, Widnes failed to meet their 8,000 break even attendance, Salford are in crisis, Wakefield have a future at Newmarket with crowds rising, Broncos and Fartown are propped up by millionaires.

Hull.K.R. are in heavy debt to their directors and run at a £500K a season loss at the moment.

So we need to deal in facts and those are the facts.

As for "nonsense" it would be a nonsense to cull six clubs from SL as well as HKR. Why did you say that??

It needs a restructure and they are talking about it now.

[The Parksider]

Kingston Upon Hull remains the biggest RL stronghold outside of Sydney & Brisbane.

Lets celebrate that there is at least one city in England where RL is so popular it can support 2 teams.

It's a great RL city, but the Calder area is the biggest place for Rugby League in the northern hemisphere.

That's how Hull got their 80's success buying up all the players from there.

Currently Hull cannot support it's second club, HKR loses half a million a year and owes it's directors a lot of money. It's also had it's playing roster picked off by Hull and if Dobson goes this will be worse.

Mr. Pearson seems to want to use HKR as a nursery to build his own team, that doesn't help one iota.

BUT apparently there are take over talks and Craven Park is under development so we will have to see if the dream of two successful clubs in one place can work in time.

But people cannot be blamed for doubting it. Even if Cas got Glasshoughton and Wakey got Newmarket there'd still be doubts there. RL just hasn't got the resources, that's why passionate fans dream they are there.

[1976PMJwires]

Cas are in crisis, Widnes failed to meet their 8,000 break even attendance, Salford are in crisis, Wakefield have a future at Newmarket with crowds rising, Broncos and Fartown are propped up by millionaires.

Hull.K.R. are in heavy debt to their directors and run at a £500K a season loss at the moment.

So we need to deal in facts and those are the facts.

As for "nonsense" it would be a nonsense to cull six clubs from SL as well as HKR. Why did you say that??

It needs a restructure and they are talking about it now.

Not heard Steve o Connor moaning about the size of the crowds, so why mention widnes??

I don't tend to post comments against your posts, but this one I had to.

[slowdive]

Cas are in crisis, Widnes failed to meet their 8,000 break even attendance, Salford are in crisis, Wakefield have a future at Newmarket with crowds rising, Broncos and Fartown are propped up by millionaires.

Hull.K.R. are in heavy debt to their directors and run at a £500K a season loss at the moment.

So we need to deal in facts and those are the facts.

As for "nonsense" it would be a nonsense to cull six clubs from SL as well as HKR. Why did you say that??

It needs a restructure and they are talking about it now.

I was referring to the idea that HKR will 'never ever' be sustainable. The point I was making was that if HKR are not sustainable on average crowds of what seven, eight thousand, then what hope is there for half of the rest of the league?
I might be an eternal optimist, but I never cease to be amazed at how incompetent a lot of clubs, not just RL clubs, actually are. As a teacher, I've worked in some appallingly run schools and some good ones, but it does seem to me that if you get the right people involved and do things properly then it's makes all sort of things possible.

[The Parksider]

Not heard Steve o Connor moaning about the size of the crowds, so why mention widnes??

It was Mr. Slowdive who mentioned Widnes hence I replied giving them a mention.

As I understand it and to date nobody has queried the position, Mr. O'Connor wanted to set Widnes up so they would be self sustainable in Superleague. He was using his business acumen to "maximise income and minimise expenditure" and did not want to be a sugar daddy although it was reported he'd offered significant sums to sign players to strengthen the squad in the wake of a poor start to Superleague, and I can only assume that the sums may well have come from his pocket and been "investment".

I also seem to remember (corections are always most welcome) he put the onus on the fans to pay for the club they wanted via season "passes" which offered more than season tickets. He may also have said at some point or indicated through the "passes" target that he needed 8,000 fans in the stadium to run on break even.

As it turned out 3,700 averages in the CC rose to 5,900 averages in Superleague, so there is a very very strong paralell between HKR's income situation and Widnes's income situation (without directors money both run at a loss on full cap) hence slowdive mentioned it and so did I. Widnes sit close to Warrington so there is another paralell with the hull situation, unless one is of the opinion Widnes people only watch Widnes, and only Royston Vasey people watch Royston Vasey RLFC.

Of course we do not know which way the business will go at Widnes. It's merely one year in (had the P & R brigade had their way Mr. O'Connors plans would be in tatters now with Sheffield being planless) and Mr. O'Connor may be a stayer like Mr Davey, but if Superleague were picking the "Ideal clubs" (Income = at least max salary cap spend plus other essential expenses) only, then Widnes would not get in Superleague.

Edited by The Parksider, 05 November 2012 - 11:02 AM.

[TheDuke]

Hull FC are running at a similar loss to KR so why isnt that mentioned?

[Kenilworth Tiger]

Wakefield have a future at Newmarket with crowds rising,

When will it be started Finished?

[The Parksider]

1. I was referring to the idea that HKR will 'never ever' be sustainable. The point I was making was that if HKR are not sustainable on average crowds of what seven, eight thousand, then what hope is there for half of the rest of the league?

2. I might be an eternal optimist, but I never cease to be amazed at how incompetent a lot of clubs, not just RL clubs, actually are. As a teacher, I've worked in some appallingly run schools and some good ones, but it does seem to me that if you get the right people involved and do things properly then it's makes all sort of things possible.

1. Never say never ever, because to be fair there's another investor interested in possibly taking over HKR. I am a bit sceptical because he's not named and of course it's season ticket selling time, but fingers crossed. There is also the ground developments at Craven park. Certainly improved facilities put bums on seats and they can also provide a higher revenue per person, so all's not lost at Hull.K.R. But one can't dismiss the size of the downside which seems to be Pearson stripping HKR of it's best players. Clearly he doesn't rate the derby matches or the "symbiotic" relationship that is alleged occurs in Hull.

2. The hope for the rest of the league is fairly easy IMHO. One hopes that the clubs will restructure the league. Not along the Gatcliffe lines of 20 clubs in Superleague (has he explained this one yet anybody??) but along the sensible lines of a return to 12 clubs. Other options include a small drop in the salary cap (we don't have expensive Aussies to entice and house anymore) a targetted distribution of SKY money, or some income sharing. Also a second french club may offer more income to SL.

On the point of Incompetence you can nail that to government departments, councils, private company call centers, the NHS etc etc etc. Competence is a rare and valuable thing, and I don't think "Incompetence" is the main problem for our game.

The problem is it's a minority sport trying to keep its head above water as the big fish of soccer and union swim past dragging it under. The other problem is people in the game whether fans, administrators or rich chairmen, being resistant to neccessary change.

I like to reason that Maurice Lyndsay had the competence to make things happen, but in the end he was swimming against the tide of clubs and fans who resisted the change. If Superleague wants a competent leader Hetherington is the obvious choice by a mile but watch for the pejudices come out on this one. Plus Hetherington may feel that the clubs won't support him.

As for Neil Hudgell the problem is the Government hunting down workplace accident claim lawyers.

[The Parksider]

When will it be started Finished?

I pointed out the position as it currently stands and of course there are problems in even getting going.

If Newmarket were to collapse it could be the catalyst for the clubs in the area finally have some real talks about the future.

As it stands they all want to survive seperately and all want to be in Super dooper league, and that gives them all problems IMHO.

The problem is something like 20,000+ RL fans and a supply of fantastic players in the area is not being harnessed for the good of the game. What I would do is............sit and watch those who have the power and see what they do.....

Edited by The Parksider, 05 November 2012 - 11:31 AM.

[Kenilworth Tiger]

I pointed out the position as it currently stands and of course there are problems in even getting going.

If Newmarket were to collapse it could be the catalyst for the clubs in the area finally have some real talks about the future.

As it stands they all want to survive seperately and all want to be in Super dooper league, and that gives them all problems IMHO.

The problem is something like 20,000+ RL fans and a supply of fantastic players in the area is not being harnessed for the good of the game. What I would do is............sit and watch those who have the power and see what they do.....

I'd share a ground to be honest

[Spidey]

I also seem to remember (corections are always most welcome) he put the onus on the fans to pay for the club they wanted via season "passes" which offered more than season tickets. He may also have said at some point or indicated through the "passes" target that he needed 8,000 fans in the stadium to run on break even.

8,000 Is about right to break even on full salary cap spend as he stated he wanted 7,000 members/season ticket holders for the full cap. We're far from spending the full cap at the minute as we're far from getting the 7,000 members.

No signings so far, but big wages off the bill in Watts and Moore

[The Parksider]

Hull FC are running at a similar loss to KR so why isnt that mentioned?

Mr. Pearson took over Hull who were running at a loss and he indicated he would sort this out, but not before making some short term investments, so he explained ths losses and promised to eradicate them in time.

Those investments seem to be picking out the best HKR players, Galea, Taylor, O'Donnnel, Watts, Dobson etc and using money the club don't really have to take/try to take these players off HKR who in turn are not prepared to take Pearson on financially.

It's just a personal opinion of mine that seems to be Pearsons approach that Hull just might do a lot better if HKR were not around.

So at the moment both clubs are leaking money, but things are not as "even" as you portray - one WITH private investment looks like it's trying to destroy one currently (as I say a new investor has been suggested) without private investment.

So I would guess you could get your answer if Pearsons moves come to fruition which could be he clears the hull "pitch" for his own club and that gives the club a return on their current "excesses"

[The Parksider]

I'd share a ground to be honest

I've noted that you have always been forward thinking and pragmatic about the situation.

I also noted how the council squirmed out of things by saying they could not help any one of the three clubs and so they would help none.

I do not remember enough about the situation to know that if ground sharing had been agreed - at least between Wakey and Cas - wether the council would have provided something equi-distance between the two clubs by now.

If that didn't work for either then the dreaded M option would resurface and may be better facilitated in a ground where "sharing" is the word and boundaries are blurred.

But I have always believed Wakefield will work as well as Hull, Wire, Leeds, Wigan, Les cats if they get a ground, and at current gates in a shhhhhhhh...........it looks to be true.

But I aren't dismissive of Cas in my staunch support of Wakefield, they have turned in 7,500 averages in just as big a Shhhhhh....
They are not hampered by the size of the town because unlike most other RL clubs where "only local people support the local club"
I have it on first hand authority people come from miles to watch cas, including a lad in the street next to me..........

[Just Browny]

It'd be nice to have a rugby thread once in a while.

[The Parksider]

1. 8,000 Is about right to break even on full salary cap spend as he stated he wanted 7,000 members/season ticket holders for the full cap. We're far from spending the full cap at the minute as we're far from getting the 7,000 members.

2. No signings so far, but big wages off the bill in Watts and Moore

1. That's interesting that the club plan for 7 out of 8 people to be season ticket holders.

2. No signings?? I don't know when clubs can start signing them and when the rush is over??

If the rush is over are you worried about this??

[slowdive]

1. Never say never ever, because to be fair there's another investor interested in possibly taking over HKR. I am a bit sceptical because he's not named and of course it's season ticket selling time, but fingers crossed. There is also the ground developments at Craven park. Certainly improved facilities put bums on seats and they can also provide a higher revenue per person, so all's not lost at Hull.K.R. But one can't dismiss the size of the downside which seems to be Pearson stripping HKR of it's best players. Clearly he doesn't rate the derby matches or the "symbiotic" relationship that is alleged occurs in Hull.

2. The hope for the rest of the league is fairly easy IMHO. One hopes that the clubs will restructure the league. Not along the Gatcliffe lines of 20 clubs in Superleague (has he explained this one yet anybody??) but along the sensible lines of a return to 12 clubs. Other options include a small drop in the salary cap (we don't have expensive Aussies to entice and house anymore) a targetted distribution of SKY money, or some income sharing. Also a second french club may offer more income to SL.

On the point of Incompetence you can nail that to government departments, councils, private company call centers, the NHS etc etc etc. Competence is a rare and valuable thing, and I don't think "Incompetence" is the main problem for our game.

The problem is it's a minority sport trying to keep its head above water as the big fish of soccer and union swim past dragging it under. The other problem is people in the game whether fans, administrators or rich chairmen, being resistant to neccessary change.

I like to reason that Maurice Lyndsay had the competence to make things happen, but in the end he was swimming against the tide of clubs and fans who resisted the change. If Superleague wants a competent leader Hetherington is the obvious choice by a mile but watch for the pejudices come out on this one. Plus Hetherington may feel that the clubs won't support him.

As for Neil Hudgell the problem is the Government hunting down workplace accident claim lawyers.

I agree incompetence is shared around very equitably, but the point you make about the competition from other sports highlights the need for our game to try and promote good practice even further.
I think the problems start at the top of the game and whilst the RFL have made a game attempt at promoting good practice through licensing, it's clearly not worked as well as it could or should have done.
I know we don't live in an ideal world, but at the very least we need to aspire to making things better.
There is tendency amongst a lot of fans to look on the downside (and I know that has been commented upon ad nauseum), but instead of looking for reasons why things won't work those in leadership positions need to look for how to make things work.

[Exiled Wiganer]

Padge may be teasing? Course there's plenty room in an area that size for 2 SL teams. Now, if we go to a 10 team league that might be a different matter.

[Viking Warrior]

Cas are in crisis, Widnes failed to meet their 8,000 break even attendance, Salford are in crisis, Wakefield have a future at Newmarket with crowds rising, Broncos and Fartown are propped up by millionaires.

Hull.K.R. are in heavy debt to their directors and run at a £500K a season loss at the moment.

So we need to deal in facts and those are the facts.

As for "nonsense" it would be a nonsense to cull six clubs from SL as well as HKR. Why did you say that??

It needs a restructure and they are talking about it now.

before posting drivel please check the facts, the figure steve set was 7000 viking stronghold members., and it was not a break even figure it was a projection to allow the club to compete for the best players available. but steve has never moaned about the fact that we only have about 5000 members..........and we still signed kevin brown by offering him a much better deal than wigan did.

[Viking Warrior]

8,000 Is about right to break even on full salary cap spend as he stated he wanted 7,000 members/season ticket holders for the full cap. We're far from spending the full cap at the minute as we're far from getting the 7,000 members.

No signings so far, but big wages off the bill in Watts and Moore

kev brown, joe mellor and stefan marsh are new signings for next season??

[Ullman]

I'd love to get a pair of these Hull spectacles through which Dobson is clearly seen as some sort of rugby god.

He and Holdsworth would represent a very mechanical, well-disciplined halfback partnership, but don't come looking for excitement.

I'm one of the minority (well I get the impression it's a minortiy) of Hull fans who thought the club did the right thing by not offering Dobson a contract when he'd gone back to Canberra.

Trouble is, I was daft enough to think we'd make a move for somebody better. He's a far better player than anybody we've had subsequently. I also think he's a better player than he was then and you give him credit for. Sandercock got him to take on the line a lot more last season and he was very effective when doing so.