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Police Commissioner elections


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79 replies to this topic

Poll: Are you going to vote in the Police Commissioner elections? (24 member(s) have cast votes)

Are you going to vote in the Police Commissioner elections?

  1. Yes. (7 votes [29.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.17%

  2. No. (16 votes [66.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 66.67%

  3. Not eligible to vote. (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. No election in my area. (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. I have no idea what you talking about. Elect what? When? Where...??? (1 votes [4.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.17%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#61 JohnM

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:38 PM

In the Cardiff and Penarth parliamentary by-election yesterday, the turnout was 25.65%. As the BBC said about the PCC elections, "With turnout in the teens in many places, questions are being asked about the credibility of the whole idea and the mandate of those who have won" For the exercise of balance, did they ask Miliband if their man in Cardiff had a mandate or their woman in Manchester? Guess what?

#62 Padge

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:16 PM

In the Cardiff and Penarth parliamentary by-election yesterday, the turnout was 25.65%. As the BBC said about the PCC elections, "With turnout in the teens in many places, questions are being asked about the credibility of the whole idea and the mandate of those who have won" For the exercise of balance, did they ask Miliband if their man in Cardiff had a mandate or their woman in Manchester? Guess what?

This was not a bye-election where the candidate as left the post mid-term, this was a general election for the guy who is going to cost the tax payer a lot of money to employ to replace a lot of people who already get 'paid' to the same job who will still be employed doing what they do minus this job.

The Tories are notorious for creating layers of government that did not exist previously to try and gerrymander local politics.

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#63 Old Frightful

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:08 PM

I'm sure that all those haters will elect John Prescott to his new job of PCC next week.

Sadly being in East Riding I have to accept that he's going to get the job.

It would appear you're both incorrect, however it's nice to see John bears no grudges and wishes his victorious opponent well...

Posted Image

          NO BUTS IT'S GOT TO BE BUTTER......                                 Z1N2MybzplQR6XBrwB9egniMH8xqYQ5s.jpg                                                                                                                     


#64 Steve May

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 09:36 PM

The encouraging thing in the number of Independents who have won PCC elections. Nine so far. That should shake up the previously cosy relationship between the police and the part politically dominated Police Authorities.


I'm not so sure. Most of the independents that won are ex-police or ex-Police Authority. Can't seem much changing with them in post.

Most of the independents that lost were Lib Dems who were ashamed to admit they were Lib Dems.

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#65 gingerjon

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 09:38 PM

I'm not so sure. Most of the independents that won are ex-police or ex-Police Authority. Can't seem much changing with them in post.

Most of the independents that lost were Lib Dems who were ashamed to admit they were Lib Dems.


I'd love to do an assessment of how many people who won had their name top of the ballot.
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#66 JohnM

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:35 PM

start here: http://www.thisislei...tail/story.html

#67 Griff9of13

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:56 AM

Interesting stat from the Telegraph:


There was also a backlash over fears of the politicisation of policing with candidates from the main political parties securing a number of posts. Independents performed well but an unusually high number of spoilt ballot papers were reported.
They ran at between 2.5 and 4.5 per cent of the turnout. Anything over 2 per cent is regarded by experts as evidence of deliberate action. In Coventry, the number of spoilt papers outnumbered votes cast for the Lib Dem candidate, Ayoub Khan, at 884 to 783.
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#68 RidingPie

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:17 AM

It would appear you're both incorrect, however it's nice to see John bears no grudges and wishes his victorious opponent well...

Posted Image


I'll hold my head up, I got it wrong! Frankly the guy who won's campaign was based on being (direct quote from the leaflet that was pushed through our door) "the only person who can beat John Prescott". Hey it worked, but it was rather light on policy.

#69 RidingPie

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:28 AM

In the Cardiff and Penarth parliamentary by-election yesterday, the turnout was 25.65%. As the BBC said about the PCC elections, "With turnout in the teens in many places, questions are being asked about the credibility of the whole idea and the mandate of those who have won" For the exercise of balance, did they ask Miliband if their man in Cardiff had a mandate or their woman in Manchester? Guess what?


John you're comparing apples with oranges there between the quote you've supplied and the information you've supplied. Since the by-election turnout was 25.65% this was way above the teens. The lowest was about 10% electoral turn out. Frankly to spend £75M on an election that no one wants for a position very few people see the need for in a time of austerity is a bad joke.

Also its not just the BBC saying that the low turn out for the PCC elections (interestingly the areas with a by-election had a higher turnout, making their result a better mandate) makes the PCC elections dodgy either. Here's an article from right wing bias newspaper The Telegraph saying the same thing. I can't see a problem with what the beeb are saying on that one.

#70 WearyRhino

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:39 AM

... In Coventry, the number of spoilt papers outnumbered votes cast for the Lib Dem candidate, Ayoub Khan, at 884 to 783.


But that' s 1667 spoilt papers, surely?

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#71 JohnM

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:32 AM

See post #44 - Labour have a new MP on a 19% turnout. ( Manchester Central) Was that an election no one wanted?

Its not for me to do the Govt's job in this but they really have done a lamentable job in explaining the new system against a background of lack of interest in teh way the former Police Authorities worked - How were they appointed? How were they made up? Who was in charge? What did they achieve? What say did anyone have in their running? How much did they cost?

Turning to the new system - did you know about this? http://www.homeoffic...partiality-oath

At least now the subject has received a decent airing, no one can be in any doubt about who their PCC is, what the job is, how to contact them etc. Isn't that better?

#72 RidingPie

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:48 PM

See post #44 - Labour have a new MP on a 19% turnout. ( Manchester Central) Was that an election no one wanted?


wanted or not Tony Lloyd resigned so I suspect that the people of central Manchester wanted to continue to be represented in Parliament. Since its a safe labour seat under FPTP you can understand voter apathy. Incidentally the 19% was still higher than the average for the PCC only elections.

Turning to the new system - did you know about this? http://www.homeoffic...partiality-oath


Yes I did! I'm not seeing the point though, because oath of impartiality or not people will do what they see fit and just retro fit their justifications afterwards, as tends to happen with politician everywhere.

You've changed tack a bit though.


In post #61 you were basically slagging off the beeb saying there was no balance in their coverage. I was pointing out that coverage from all sides of the political divide are talking about mandate problems with the PCC elections generally. In this instance I don't think you're slagging off of the beeb is valid.

#73 John Rhino

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:51 PM

At least now the subject has received a decent airing, no one can be in any doubt about who their PCC is, what the job is, how to contact them etc. Isn't that better?


I'm not sure that it is. It's more an example of politicians passing the buck for a poor service.

When it goes wrong the stock answer now is "well you voted for him, you should have voted for us"

It's like the health service - I don't want choice. When I'm ill I want a properly organised and efficient health service not a political football. Similarly when I need a rozzer I need one quick, I shouldn't have to care about the mechanism, that's what I pay my taxes for.

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#74 JohnM

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 02:38 PM

You've changed tack a bit though.


Nope . Of course, if there were persuasive arguments to change tack, I would.

In the absence of any effective Parliamentary opposition the BBC News and Current Affairs people are still carrying out that role - and still buying 28% of The Guardian's daily circulation to keep themselves properly informed.

It certainly is a concern that the turn-out was so low, and I can see a number of reasons for that, including people abstaining/spoiling their votes as some sort of bizarre democratic protest. n I think the main point is covered in post #59 - the low esteem in which voters hold our politicians and similar.



Scrutiny of the PCC
PCCs will be scrutinised by police and crime panels, which will be formed of a minimum of 12 people (including a minimum of 10 representatives from the local authorities in the force area and two independently recruited members of the public).
The duties of the panel include:
  • requiring the PCC to respond to any concerns they have
  • making recommendations on the crime plan and annual reports
  • confirming or vetoing the PCC's appointment of chief constable and the level of local tax (the precept level)


#75 RidingPie

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:00 PM

Nope . Of course, if there were persuasive arguments to change tack, I would.

In the absence of any effective Parliamentary opposition the BBC News and Current Affairs people are still carrying out that role - and still buying 28% of The Guardian's daily circulation to keep themselves properly informed.

It certainly is a concern that the turn-out was so low, and I can see a number of reasons for that, including people abstaining/spoiling their votes as some sort of bizarre democratic protest. n I think the main point is covered in post #59 - the low esteem in which voters hold our politicians and similar.



Scrutiny of the PCC
PCCs will be scrutinised by police and crime panels, which will be formed of a minimum of 12 people (including a minimum of 10 representatives from the local authorities in the force area and two independently recruited members of the public).
The duties of the panel include:

  • requiring the PCC to respond to any concerns they have
  • making recommendations on the crime plan and annual reports
  • confirming or vetoing the PCC's appointment of chief constable and the level of local tax (the precept level)


LOL and changed track again to discuss the BBC/Guardian relationship (which you more relevantly mentioned in a different thread) whilst avoiding the points I made.

I'll ask again John, how can it be BBC bias if all sides of the media spectrum are saying the same thing. Maybe in this instance its informed opinion. Again, its just seems like you're taking any opportunity to take a pop at the BBC. As I said... there are places its valid but I don't think it is here

#76 RidingPie

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:23 PM

Also John I was slightly suspicious of you BBC buying 28% of the Guardian's daily circulation quote both times I've seen you mentioned it. Now I've looked in to it I've not surprisingly found its guff!

Here's the root figures as I understand them! From a freedom of information request issued the BBC released figures showing that BETWEEN the dates of 1st April 2010 and 28th February 2011 the BBC bought 59,829 copies of the Guardian. That's not per day, that is in that particular 11 month windows, so since I can't be bothered counting the actual says I'm going to assume a 30 day month 30x11 = 330 divide by the number of copies bought through that period = 181.3 copies per day. Whilst the Guardian has a small circulation its a bit higher than that!

According to Wikipedia the Guardian's daily circulation for 2011 is 279,308, making the actually daily percentage of the Guardian's print edition the BBC buys as 0.06480301316109814%

Phew! At least we can put that one to bed!

Edited by RidingPie, 19 November 2012 - 03:38 PM.


#77 JohnM

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:51 PM

That's how I get a lot of my research done! :) Now, what % of the Telegraph's print run does the BBC buy? :rolleyes: Have a care, though, as I have been accused on here of having too much trust in Wikipedia as a source.

Just because other media outlets are saying the same thing does not absolve the BC from accusations of bias. I used to play in brass band that marched in Manchester's Whit Walks. Frequently, I was the only one in step!

Anyway, though it is drifting from the point somewhat, my point stll stands. someone has to act as the opposition

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Edited by JohnM, 19 November 2012 - 03:53 PM.


#78 RidingPie

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:57 PM

That's how I get a lot of my research done! :) Now, what % of the Telegraph's print run does the BBC buy? :rolleyes:


Lets spread the net wider why don't we? The raw FOI figures are (not from wiki but from the BBC document that released them... findable on the commentator and order order) :

Times: 51,384
Telegraph: 48,968
Mail: 45,553
The Sun: 42,905

Total right-wing: 188,810

Guardian: 58,829
Independent: 43,709

Total left-wing: 102,538

So in total the BBC buys more right wing newspapers a day than it does left wing! What a shock!

I'm curious though as to where you got your 28% figure from? Did you assume the 11 month figure was a daily figure or did you just copy it from somewhere else?

Also using quotes from people, all of whom have a bias one way or another isn't evidence, its anecdotal at best, completely cherry picking at worst.

#79 JohnM

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:56 PM

The Times has twice the print run of the Guardian, so you need to do your sums again on the original basis. Of course, like 73.8% of all statistics, the 28% was made up. Quotes from real people at the BBC? As if they know anything! Hardy anecdotal, either. And cherry picking? Well, yes, there are SOOO many of them to pick.

Still, if you dismiss a veritable avalanche of cherries as " anecdotal", you's similarly dismiss the denials of that very busy Newsnight team. Or not....let me guess.

#80 RidingPie

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:16 PM

The Times has twice the print run of the Guardian, so you need to do your sums again on the original basis. Of course, like 73.8% of all statistics, the 28% was made up. Quotes from real people at the BBC? As if they know anything! Hardy anecdotal, either. And cherry picking? Well, yes, there are SOOO many of them to pick.

Still, if you dismiss a veritable avalanche of cherries as " anecdotal", you's similarly dismiss the denials of that very busy Newsnight team. Or not....let me guess.


I'm sorry John I'm having a bit of a credibility issue with you on this one! You've just admitted to making up a damning figure you've bandied around, and your telling me I need to rework my maths. Would you like to point out why the times print edition has any baring on my figures? Oh sorry that's right it doesn't!

And your bringing in to doubt my credibility!

If you think what a few people say in different interviews is anything other than anecdotal (especially when you know I can find quotes saying the opposite) then I'm afraid it's going back to you just looking like you've an anti bbc agenda.