203 replies to this topic

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I think bunfairness is a cracking neologism.

It could catch on.

I like it as well

[longboard]

I like it as well

The WI should like it.

[exiled rover]

what are yout views on the morality of tax evasion by the wealthy?

I'm really not sure how SL as a limited country is out of order, but if it is it pales in comparison to depriving trhe country of billions in taxes.

There is life beyond the bottom of station lane. There are things that transcend a game.

Mr Mysterio you really do have a very special talent for winding people up on even the most inocuous of topics. You appear to have given up on the Rovers forum but you still cann't resist a dig can you?

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Mr Mysterio you really do have a very special talent for winding people up on even the most inocuous of topics. You appear to have given up on the Rovers forum but you still cann't resist a dig can you?

only where it's richly deserved

[shaun mc]

Probiz are no different at all from any other set of accountants - whether it be KPMG or a small practice in a market town with a few partners. Tax planning is only one of the main 9 services they list, and there is nothing wrong with any of them.
All firms of accountants offer these services regardless of the wealth of the individual or the business they operate. They will represent many thousands of small businesses in helping them through the tax, pension, payroll, capital allowances, NI, PAYE, VAT minefields, when they are very busy with running their own businesses, as well as offering advise on business strategy and project management.

Nothing to be seen here, some need to wind their necks in.
The laws around tax have been voted in by a democratic country. Inevitably, some are fairer to some sections of society than others.

[Griff]

Not everyone has to report that they're using tax avoidance schemes, though. There's avoidance where you use the legislation as it was intended and avoidance where you might end up in in a tax tribunal later, finding out whether your interpretation of the legislation stacks up.

[shaun mc]

Maybe Probiz are a bit more aggresive on the tax avoidance schemes than others, maybe not, but every firm of accountants will advise on you reducing your tax bill, and a large proportion of that work will be through clients lack of knowledge or understanding of every part of tax legislation that affects themselves individually or their business.

The Govt has reduced the number of tax offices and points of contact and has increased self-assessment. Therefore, the need for outside advice has also increased.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Maybe Probiz are a bit more aggresive on the tax avoidance schemes than others, maybe not, but every firm of accountants will advise on you reducing your tax bill, and a large proportion of that work will be through clients lack of knowledge or understanding of every part of tax legislation that affects themselves individually or their business.

The Govt has reduced the number of tax offices and points of contact and has increased self-assessment. Therefore, the need for outside advice has also increased.

it isn't the point, althoiugh what you say about tax officrs is true. However those who are already wealthy are consciously. and proactively avoiding paying tax and employing companies like Probiz to do it to the tune of: http://www.tuc.org.u...tuc-14238-f0.cf

the actual point is that people who whinge loud and long about unfairness, morality, injustice and the rest when rugby league isn't run in the way that suits them seem less than vociferous regarding this subject when it comes close to home and their own club is benefitting from funds from such a company. It isn't probiz as such that concerns me, although I'd like to see the tax loopholes that they help their rich clients to exploit closed, but the self serving double standards.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

never fallen out with the BOD. show me a post where I've criticised the BOD.

Really? Unfortunately too long gone to retrieve posts from the early 2000s.

If I have anything nto say to them I do it personally.

I wll look forward to the next fans forum then when you question the morality of the club's sponsorship by Probiz.

Then again maybe we should question your morality in not making your recent criticisms of things Featherstone when 'an employee' of the club?

[Terry Mullaney]

Really? Unfortunately too long gone to retrieve posts from the early 2000s.



I wll look forward to the next fans forum then when you question the morality of the club's sponsorship by Probiz.

Then again maybe we should question your morality in not making your recent criticisms of things Featherstone when 'an employee' of the club?

Smacks of double standards to me LTS

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Really? Unfortunately too long gone to retrieve posts from the early 2000s.



I wll look forward to the next fans forum then when you question the morality of the club's sponsorship by Probiz.

Then again maybe we should question your morality in not making your recent criticisms of things Featherstone when 'an employee' of the club?

I had a break from working foir Rovers in 1998 when I was seriously ill, that's the only time I had severed connections with the club. I never even had a phone call inquiring what had happened to me: but it didn't put me off.

I haven't been an unpaid employee for some months now. During that time if there was any criticism I might have felt the need to express then I have discussed it with the people concerned.

Even on this occassion, I repear for the nth time, it isn't a question of criticising the club, rather those who like to take a moral stance on the way the game is run-usually when that way doesn't suit them or fit their own ideas, yet they are reticent for some reason when it comes to aponsorship by a highly contentious, morally if not legally questionable area of business. Yet again I couldn't care less who sponsor Featherstone Rovers. I no longer have any connection with the club.

I really do hope this helps, there are only so many brick walls you can bang your head against.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Smacks of double standards to me LTS

really?
How?

[shaun mc]

It took me 5 minutes to think of 'morality' arguments against any number of sponsors/benefactors of SL clubs or RL in general. There is no reason to pick out Probiz over any other. For Probiz now read KPMG a few years ago. They undertake the exact same operations and services. Yet they have been given a clean slate by many in their 'licensing consultations'. The RFL should never have paid the bill.

Criticising the way RL is governed is a whole different kettle of fish for me. These are the people we put our trust and eventually money in to run and administer the game. They are not beyond criticism and should provide guts and leadership in the good and bad times - the same goes for your clubs BOD's.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

It took me 5 minutes to think of 'morality' arguments against any number of sponsors/benefactors of SL clubs or RL in general. There is no reason to pick out Probiz over any other. For Probiz now read KPMG a few years ago. They undertake the exact same operations and services. Yet they have been given a clean slate by many in their 'licensing consultations'. The RFL should never have paid the bill.

Criticising the way RL is governed is a whole different kettle of fish for me. These are the people we put our trust and eventually money in to run and administer the game. They are not beyond criticism and should provide guts and leadership in the good and bad times - the same goes for your clubs BOD's.

at last a cogent response: many thanks

the governing body of the game, along with those who run the clubs bear a massive burden of responsibility, and as people in public life are and should be open nto criticism.

However there is a reason to pick out Probiz, or the short term loan company that sp[onsor the Bulls: this area of business is extremely controversial and in a high profile way., the exchequer is losing billions.

The people running the game have to play with a pack of cards ruinously stacked against them compared to other sports; a poor demographic far narrower for instance than rugby union, little wealth, poor geographical spread, vociferous reactionary movements within the sport, and a sport that has been historically badly run: Bill Fallowfield has a lot to answer for.

Because of this decisons are bound to not suit somebody or other. The strong reactionary whingeing and moaning tendency frequently refer to this as 'unfair', 'immoral; and the rest. To me unfairness and so on are willful deliberate acts to deliberately do harm, cheat, or disadvantage others.

What I'm questioning is the seeming self serving double standards of people who use terms such as immorality and unfairness when it suits them, but remain silent when it doesn't.

[shaun mc]

IMO unfairness occurs in every major decision or action by large company, influential individuals or government. Its a fact of life for me. Some of these decisions have more gravity than others.
I think you see unfairness in a stronger vain than me - I don't see them as wholly deliberate, but sometimes an inevitable consequence.

Perhaps an example without delving into the recent mega threads and re-igniting those. The overseas quotas and the Challenge Cup - when they meet its unfair on the Championship clubs because their quota is lower than the SL clubs. Its not a deliberate policy by the RFL against the CC clubs but there is an element of unfairness IMO.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

IMO unfairness occurs in every major decision or action by large company, influential individuals or government. Its a fact of life for me. Some of these decisions have more gravity than others.
I think you see unfairness in a stronger vain than me - I don't see them as wholly deliberate, but sometimes an inevitable consequence.

Perhaps an example without delving into the recent mega threads and re-igniting those. The overseas quotas and the Challenge Cup - when they meet its unfair on the Championship clubs because their quota is lower than the SL clubs. Its not a deliberate policy by the RFL against the CC clubs but there is an element of unfairness IMO.

I see what you mean.

To me it would be unfair if what you say happened as a deliberate act with the purpose of doing the smaller clubs down. I don't think this is the case. Also the quota is lower for a fair reason; to protect the championshjip clubs form themselves.

But let's run with it. What do those connected with the CC clubs do? Whine to the heavens about how unfair it is, but say nothing about the inequitabillity of the sponsor who deals in, well you know what. This is what I'm getting at. You can't be concerned about fairness within a certain sphere just when it suits. Of course people do this kind of thing all the time...we are all hypocrites at times. It's how you react when it's pointed out to you that throws light on people.

edit: another example is the signing of talented plyers from amateur rugby. Do you think it equitable that a club signs a Paul Newlove or a Zak Hardaker for what ammounts to a pittance, then makes a huge profit when they move on? You don't hear that discussed on the 'forums' od the people who like to whinge as on this thread about the big clubs exploiting them(whether they are or not).

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 22 November 2012 - 06:01 PM.

[Robin Evans]

"legally questionable"? Unless you've got some evidence to back this up Chris I'm both disappointed and angeed at the comment - a comment you attempted to lever into a thread some weeks ago.

If you have any evidence - use it. Otherwise retract the comment Chris. Unnecessary and uncalled for.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

"legally questionable"? Unless you've got some evidence to back this up Chris I'm both disappointed and angeed at the comment - a comment you attempted to lever into a thread some weeks ago.

If you have any evidence - use it. Otherwise retract the comment Chris. Unnecessary and uncalled for.

who said anything about legally questionable? I certainly didn't. Of cours these companies activities are legal.

What are your views on companies who spcialise in tax avoidance for the wealthy?

[suzzy]

I think this topic has gone far away from what it started out to be and has descended into a battle of l,angelo versus Featherstone rovers fans which in my opinion is quiet boring now obviously there is issues between Chris and you guys who post on here but i wish you would take it elsewhere .

[Robin Evans]

Even on this occassion, I repear for the nth time, it isn't a question of criticising the club, rather those who like to take a moral stance on the way the game is run-usually when that way doesn't suit them or fit their own ideas, yet they are reticent for some reason when it comes to aponsorship by a highly contentious, morally if not legally questionable area of business. Yet again I couldn't care less who sponsor Featherstone Rovers. I no longer have any connection with the club.

Chris, you know wntirely what you are doing. I don't give a toss how you are trying to re-direct the thread. I do however care about my club. Your comments on here serve no positive purpose with regards to my club and may, by your inference, be doing them harm. I'm not well versed in libel laws but I'm not convincd your comment isn't libellous!
Regardless, I'm reporting the post