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The danger of making unsubstantiated allegations

Lord McAlpines statement

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#21 marklaspalmas

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:14 PM

Because when large scale systematic child abuse is covered up and those who have suffered left to rot it's vital that the focus is on one person with the resources and influence to immediately defend themselves

http://www.independe...ed-8303903.html


Quite.

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#22 gingerjon

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:30 AM

Not my favourite writer but rather like Simon Jenkins I do like the way he gets his point across. And today I agree with him.

http://www.independe...em-8304858.html

Whereas prize Kanut BoJo takes the line that the real tragedy isn't raped children but one accusation quickly countered:

http://www.telegraph...agedy-here.html

Edited by gingerjon, 12 November 2012 - 01:24 PM.

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#23 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 01:00 PM

Not my favourite writer but rather like Simon Jenkins I do like the way he gets his point across. And today I agree with him.

http://www.independe...em-8304858.html

Whereas prize Kanut BoJo takes the Sadler line that the real tragedy isn't raped children but one accusation quickly countered:

http://www.telegraph...agedy-here.html


I have to say that is the most vile suggestion anyone could make. The thread is specifically about the danger of making false allegations, which in your own way you have just demonstrated. I can't imagine that anyone wouldn't recognise the depth of the tragedy in North Wales, but to use it to make cheap points like this is pathetic.

#24 gingerjon

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 01:05 PM

The thread is specifically about the danger of making false allegations,


Lord McAlpine was never in any danger and has the influence and resources to quickly arrest the accusation.

He is so far from being the real victim as to make it laughable that his rich friends are crying crocodile tears on his behalf.

EDIT:
But I will edit the phrasing of my post above.

Edited by gingerjon, 12 November 2012 - 01:24 PM.

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#25 John Drake

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 02:28 PM

Lord McAlpine was never in any danger and has the influence and resources to quickly arrest the accusation.

He is so far from being the real victim as to make it laughable that his rich friends are crying crocodile tears on his behalf.

EDIT:
But I will edit the phrasing of my post above.


Two wrongs don't make a right.

No child should ever have to suffer the attentions of a paedophile whether in a care home or any other environment.

No adult should have to suffer a false accusation of being a paedophile, regardless of wealth, status or background.

All who suffer from either are victims.

Arguing over their degree of victimhood remedies nothing.

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#26 Futtocks

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:22 PM

Newspaper front pages - translation "thank Gawd we can pretend the Leveson Enquiry's not happening any more".

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#27 Methven Hornet

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:35 PM

I suspect there might be a degree of obfuscation taking place. The government is stressing it's the wrong person that's being accused. Fair enough, but could someone with the same surname have dubious morals of the type that's been alleged?


Well, despite the efforts of some to discredit Steven Messham, the basis of his story - that a man with several expensive cars and a chauffeur would routinely 'visit' him at Bryn Estyn (cover by the Waterhouse Tribunal in 1997) - is backed up by others.

The fact that the MP at the centre of allegations of a link to No 10, Tom Watson has, he claims, received 'threats to his wellbeing' suggests that some are trying to keep something under wraps.
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#28 WearyRhino

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 05:59 PM

The fact that the MP at the centre of allegations of a link to No 10, Tom Watson has, he claims, received 'threats to his wellbeing' suggests that some are trying to keep something under wraps.


Tom is a top man and is proving himself to be very brave in taking on the establishment yet again.

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#29 Futtocks

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:27 PM

Dave Lee Travis arrested.

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn’t work if it isn’t open. Frank Zappa (1940 - 1993)


#30 JohnM

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 09:50 AM

I’ve been away for a few days but I am back to bring some balance to the debate.

Some on here still don’t get it. This is an absolute disgrace as the goings on at Newsnight are tainting forever the great name of the best broadcaster in the world.

It has been known that for years that BBC Current Affairs has been institutionally, endemically and genetically predisposed to the left. This has been admitted, demonstrated and proved beyond all reasonable doubt. Focussing more sharply, it is clear that Newsnight deliberately set out to falsely accuse McAlpine as part of their war on Thatcher.

The BBC apology is disingenuous to say the least. From the BBC website: In the Newsnight programme of 2 November, he also said a Conservative politician from the Thatcher era had abused him a number of times. Although not named by the programme, this led to incorrect speculation on the internet that the man in question was former Conservative Party treasurer Lord McAlpine.

Weasel words from the BBC, as the programmes implied who it was and pointed viewers to where the name was published. Editorial failing? Process failure? Not on your life. You can picture the glee on the faces of the Newsnight team responsible. “Publish and be damned - Gotcha, Thatcher!” And now it seems that the left’s placemen are all over the place – in the background in Leveson, The Centre (and Bureau) for Investigative Journalism, David Bell, the Media Standards Trust etc etc.

Do you think these people give a toss about people like Steve Messingham and the others who have been abused and have suffered so much? Do they hell. They must have thought they were in heaven when Steve Messingham came along. After having taken advantage of the poor guy they are now blaming him.

Even now, as the chickens come home to roost, they are manipulating and falsely representing things, with the Gaza situation proving the ideal opportunity for some pro Arab spin, Responding to the fact that they just broadcast a video of a Palestinian casualty that was a set-up for the cameras, The BBC said, “To the best of our knowledge the pictures do not show any kind of ‘staged’ event – and were run in good faith. The footage shown by BBC News was edited from a longer sequence provided by the Reuters news agency in which the man in question is shown being lifted from the ground. He is then given attention at the roadside, before appearing later having recovered. We ran a shorter edit of those pictures, and would point out that some re-uses of our output by others online have compressed the sequence further. Steps have been taken to ensure any re-broadcast reflects the full sequence so that it is absolutely clear to our audiences.”

Good faith? I expect they will be asking us to trust then mext! Have they not learned anything from the Newsnight manipulation? Gentlemen of BBC Current Affairs – you are killing the BBC.

#31 Phil

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:09 AM

It has been known that for years that BBC Current Affairs has been institutionally, endemically and genetically predisposed to the left. This has been admitted, demonstrated and proved beyond all reasonable doubt.


Really? Genetically? Proved? where? how? By whom?
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#32 JohnM

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:26 AM

Now you are just being silly.

This just in. The BBC buys 28% of the Guardians daily print run.

#33 Phil

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:49 AM

.

It has been known that for years that BBC Current Affairs has been institutionally, endemically and genetically predisposed to the left. This has been admitted, demonstrated and proved beyond all reasonable doubt. Bureau) for Investigative Journalism, David Bell, the Media Standards Trust etc etc.

Now you are just being silly.


No I'm not you made a statement, read what you said. You said an organisation can be genetically disposed to something and "This has been admitted, demonstrated and proved beyond all reasonable doubt"

Notwithstanding the fact that only organic organisms can be genetically disposed to anything.

So I repeat where how and by whom?
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#34 Futtocks

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:04 AM

No I'm not you made a statement, read what you said. You said an organisation can be genetically disposed to something and "This has been admitted, demonstrated and proved beyond all reasonable doubt"

Notwithstanding the fact that only organic organisms can be genetically disposed to anything.

So I repeat where how and by whom?


The Loony Right know with absolute certainly that the BBC is staffed exlusively by Trotskyists.

The Loony Left know with absolute certainly that the BBC is a tool of the establishment.

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn’t work if it isn’t open. Frank Zappa (1940 - 1993)


#35 RidingPie

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:11 AM

Whilst I'm not convinced that the BBC genuinely ARE left leaning in their coverage, as to me its always seems the people who 'prove' this are Right Nutters blustering going 'look it just is', does it really matter if it does lean slightly to the left? Especially since the vast majority of the rest of the media are right leaning. Lets face it Murdoch would change sky news in to a UK version of Fox if he could (and it isn't particularly neutral even now), and against corporate interests like that, I'm quite happy with the BBC generally.

All that said the two decisions in question here were wrong. The first not to show the Jimmy Savile investigation, and the second to show the Lord McAlpine. Heads have rolled and I'm interested to know how what procedures they are going to put in place to stop things like this happening in the future.

Edited by RidingPie, 16 November 2012 - 11:13 AM.


#36 RidingPie

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:13 AM

The Loony Right know with absolute certainly that the BBC is staffed exlusively by Trotskyists.

The Loony Left know with absolute certainly that the BBC is a tool of the establishment.


Thats the way I've always seen it. They annoyed the Labour party enough when they were in power to make me think that generally they are pretty neutral.

#37 WearyRhino

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:19 AM

I’ve been away for a few days but I am back to bring some balance to the debate.

Some on here still don’t get it. This is an absolute disgrace as the goings on at Newsnight are tainting forever the great name of the best broadcaster in the world.

It has been known that for years that BBC Current Affairs has been institutionally, endemically and genetically predisposed to the left. This has been admitted, demonstrated and proved beyond all reasonable doubt. Focussing more sharply, it is clear that Newsnight deliberately set out to falsely accuse McAlpine as part of their war on Thatcher.

The BBC apology is disingenuous to say the least. From the BBC website: In the Newsnight programme of 2 November, he also said a Conservative politician from the Thatcher era had abused him a number of times. Although not named by the programme, this led to incorrect speculation on the internet that the man in question was former Conservative Party treasurer Lord McAlpine.

Weasel words from the BBC, as the programmes implied who it was and pointed viewers to where the name was published. Editorial failing? Process failure? Not on your life. You can picture the glee on the faces of the Newsnight team responsible. “Publish and be damned - Gotcha, Thatcher!” And now it seems that the left’s placemen are all over the place – in the background in Leveson, The Centre (and Bureau) for Investigative Journalism, David Bell, the Media Standards Trust etc etc.

Do you think these people give a toss about people like Steve Messingham and the others who have been abused and have suffered so much? Do they hell. They must have thought they were in heaven when Steve Messingham came along. After having taken advantage of the poor guy they are now blaming him.

Even now, as the chickens come home to roost, they are manipulating and falsely representing things, with the Gaza situation proving the ideal opportunity for some pro Arab spin, Responding to the fact that they just broadcast a video of a Palestinian casualty that was a set-up for the cameras, The BBC said, “To the best of our knowledge the pictures do not show any kind of ‘staged’ event – and were run in good faith. The footage shown by BBC News was edited from a longer sequence provided by the Reuters news agency in which the man in question is shown being lifted from the ground. He is then given attention at the roadside, before appearing later having recovered. We ran a shorter edit of those pictures, and would point out that some re-uses of our output by others online have compressed the sequence further. Steps have been taken to ensure any re-broadcast reflects the full sequence so that it is absolutely clear to our audiences.”

Good faith? I expect they will be asking us to trust then mext! Have they not learned anything from the Newsnight manipulation? Gentlemen of BBC Current Affairs – you are killing the BBC.


It's Steve Messham.

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#38 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:56 AM

Focussing more sharply, it is clear that Newsnight deliberately set out to falsely accuse McAlpine as part of their war on Thatcher.

Rubbish.

They didn't set out to falsely accuse him. They thought he did it.
With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#39 gingerjon

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:19 PM

Rubbish.

They didn't set out to falsely accuse him. They thought he did it.


No, no, no. It was all because of ... y'know ... something.

McAlpine is £185,000 richer this morning anyway.
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#40 Griff9of13

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:26 PM

No, no, no. It was all because of ... y'know ... something.

McAlpine is £185,000 richer this morning anyway.


Just spotted on Twitter:

Lord McAlpine, did you consider giving that £185K of public money to the victims of child abuse? No, I'm sure you need it more...


Edited by Griff9of13, 16 November 2012 - 12:27 PM.

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