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What we learnt about England in the Autumn internationals.


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#21 RSN

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:13 PM

I am surprised that you can omit Slater as being of no importance within the Australian set-up? There is a difference in the opposition that Tomkins face in each and every domestic game that they take part in B/kid and as good as Sam can be in S/L he is a long way from proving that he would be equally as dangerous facing much sterner defencies on a weekly basis like those in the NRL.
Sorry but you are misguided to believe that there is little if any difference between Sam and Billy and I would definitely swop theirs for ours withou any hesitation whatsoever.

You though absolutely spot on concerning the halves. The coach should have the know how to perceive that the combination of Sinfield and Chase is on a World scale a pretty poor combination and simply not good enough to compete with either Thurston /Cronk or Johnson/Marshall. Unfortunately although we now do have a decent array of players from which to select our side from, we have a coach who it seems is focussed upon players whom he cannot look beyond and can simply only choose from his own favourites without recourse to others who are not being given opportunities to show their worth.

Finally; yes again, Watkins does look a superb athlete with the ball in hand! However his defence does leave a lot to be desired and unless this improves dramatically (which I for one hope that it does) he could prove to a be liability also if called upon to defend against teams from OZ and NZ. The latter which you seem to dispel as poor or worse? Well I would not be shouting that too loudly as the Kiwi side next November will bear little resemblence to that which we beat in last years tri series, on that score you can rest assured.


I think Sam proved himself in the 2011 4N. At times he ran through the Aus/Kiwi defence with ease especially with ball returns. Against the Kiwis didn't he beat 6 defenders I think their will be a video of that on youtube somehwere. Slater is the better all round player I won't deny that, but if you swapped Tomkins for Slater I don't think that it would be that bad. A quote from Darren Lockyer he said that if you stop Tomkins you go a long way to beating England, as an attacking threat I don't think you can say Slater is a class above Tomkins in attack because I just don't think he is personally. But Slaters all round game is much better.

I agree, it would be a brainfart IMO not to pick Widdop behind Chase and Sinfield. Fair enough he's not anywhere near as Thurston or Marshall but he's a damn sight better than them two.

With Watkins it's the same as Sam really, as an attacking threat he's not far off Aus its just his all round game. If he sorts his all round game then he'll be a good match for international level. With Reed I watched Brisbane 4 times last season and every game they lost, which is probably why I've lowered my opinion of him. Nothing to do with him of course thats probably an explanation why I came out with that statement, didn't watch as much NRL as I did in previous years apart from the play offs so your knowledge on Reed in making a comparision will likely be better than mine.

And no doubt about that, It'll be much better than 2011, but I'll fail to accept the term 'we are light years behind them' when they are beatable.

#22 slowdive

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:23 PM

Reason is because our halves just get simply outclassed. They get the Aussie forwards on the front foot until our forwards collapse and they go on to win the game. The only real big difference between Aus and England is 6 7 and 9. Even in the backs we arnt anywhere near as far behind as we used to be.

Tomkins is slightly worse than Slater, but he's just as good in attack.

Uate and Boyd who played in 2011 arnt clearly better than Briscoe and Hall, infact I question wether they're better at all. Fair enough they're better in the centres but Inglis has so many bad games in him, Lyon and Morris are class though but Reed doesn't seem to struggle against playing against this level of opposition every week and Watkins looks better than him.

Its only Smith Thurston and Cronk who just make the difference, but people still insist we are miles behind them but will never explain how. If we swapped our 6 7 and 9 with there's we'd win.

I'd agree with that except I think that Roby is a class act at hooker and I like the look of Clarke as possible back up if it's not too soon for him.
I don't get how Widdop can be first choice for the best club side in Australia and struggle to be first choice in the England side.
"At times to be silent is to lie. You will win because you have enough brute force. But you will not convince. For to convince you need to persuade. And in order to persuade you would need what you lack: Reason and Right."

#23 RSN

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:09 PM

I'd agree with that except I think that Roby is a class act at hooker and I like the look of Clarke as possible back up if it's not too soon for him.
I don't get how Widdop can be first choice for the best club side in Australia and struggle to be first choice in the England side.


Clarke needs another season IMO and should move on fron Cas before making the step up. Wire should be keeping their eye on him for a replacement for their two aging hookers.

Last bit is just McNamara being clueless, people say Widdop just looks good with the class which is around him but Widdop has never been called the weak link. Even when the melbourne 3 were on origin he looked quality, if Chase starts ahead of Widdop ill personally buy a seat as close to Mcnamara as possible to give him the abuse he would rightly deserve.

#24 Saint Toppy

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:45 AM

Reason is because our halves just get simply outclassed. They get the Aussie forwards on the front foot until our forwards collapse and they go on to win the game. The only real big difference between Aus and England is 6 7 and 9. Even in the backs we arnt anywhere near as far behind as we used to be.

Tomkins is slightly worse than Slater, but he's just as good in attack.

Uate and Boyd who played in 2011 arnt clearly better than Briscoe and Hall, infact I question wether they're better at all. Fair enough they're better in the centres but Inglis has so many bad games in him, Lyon and Morris are class though but Reed doesn't seem to struggle against playing against this level of opposition every week and Watkins looks better than him.

Its only Smith Thurston and Cronk who just make the difference, but people still insist we are miles behind them but will never explain how. If we swapped our 6 7 and 9 with there's we'd win.


Its more than just a few individuals who make the difference although the Aussies do have the upper hand in that department, particularly in the halves where they're miles ahead.
Coaching has long been an issue with England / GB. Our coaches always seem to come with a game plan and then rigidly push individual players into that plan regardless of whether it takes them away from the natural game & style they play every week for their clubs.
The Aussies & Kiwis have a general plan of how they wan't the team to play but appear to allow players to play their natual games and adapt as the game goes on. The team plays to the individuals strengths rather than our way for trying to change individuals.

England can win as many games as they like and look impressive against the likes of France, Wales, Scotland etc. but you'll never convince me that they will win a major tournament against the Aussies & Kiwi's as long as they have such a poor coaching set up with such an outdated mind set and plan.

#25 petero

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 04:20 PM

Its more than just a few individuals who make the difference although the Aussies do have the upper hand in that department, particularly in the halves where they're miles ahead.
Coaching has long been an issue with England / GB. Our coaches always seem to come with a game plan and then rigidly push individual players into that plan regardless of whether it takes them away from the natural game & style they play every week for their clubs.
The Aussies & Kiwis have a general plan of how they wan't the team to play but appear to allow players to play their natual games and adapt as the game goes on. The team plays to the individuals strengths rather than our way for trying to change individuals.

England can win as many games as they like and look impressive against the likes of France, Wales, Scotland etc. but you'll never convince me that they will win a major tournament against the Aussies & Kiwi's as long as they have such a poor coaching set up with such an outdated mind set and plan.


Good letter and spot on the mark too. Slowdive asks, or wonders?, why Widdop can command an almost automatic first team place on the best team in the NRL yet cannot gain selection even, when we are crying out for a Stand-off who is actually a STAND-OFF!!

Two words; Steve Macnamara!!!!!!!!!!!

His ideas have no doubt worked to some degree with the obvious cameraderie evident in the present England team and set-up, but his selections, as has been stated by others, plus the game plans? Do beggar the imagination.

He is content to play the same lads again and again V the Best teams he comes up against with the almost predictable loss at the end of each game.
OK he did manage a win V the Kiwi's last term and I will not go into the rights and wrongs of what was about in the NZ camp at that time, but he will not get a win V the Aussies if persisting with these outdated beliefs that, because someone excels in the S/L he will do the same against whoever he plays.

No names this time but I am sure you can work out who I am aiming at and the format, if it is the usual, one will inevitably end in the usual result at the end of the World cup next year also.




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