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They fought and died for our freedom


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#41 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:17 AM

bit of an over geberalisation there NS


True, there are some notable exceptions.

#42 Severus

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:22 AM

The trouble with the liberal left and their tradition of "challenging ideas" that they don't like is that they only do this to white conservatives or the white far-right. Other extremists are tolerated on the grounds of "it's their culture" (unless they are Jewish).

That is the beauty of free speech, everyone is free to challenge whatever ideas they choose. However, I strongly disagree with your statement.

Edited by Severus, 13 November 2012 - 09:22 AM.

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#43 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:27 AM

That is the beauty of free speech, everyone is free to challenge whatever ideas they choose. However, I strongly disagree with your statement.


You can if you wish but it doesn't make it any less true.

The trouble with "everyone can challenge whatever statements they choose" is the pretence that this is a level playing field especially when said individuals are in positions of power and expected to be impartial.

The liberal left are far too partial to be some kind of "guardians of free speech".

Edited by Northern Sol, 13 November 2012 - 09:28 AM.


#44 Shadow

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:32 AM

The liberal left are far too partial to be some kind of "guardians of free speech".

Yeah, they should just shut up. :rolleyes:
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#45 WearyRhino

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:32 AM

The trouble with the liberal left and their tradition of "challenging ideas" that they don't like is that they only do this to white conservatives or the white far-right. Other extremists are tolerated on the grounds of "it's their culture" (unless they are Jewish).


What on earth is the "liberal left"?

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#46 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:33 AM

Yeah, they should just shut up. :rolleyes:


No, but they should challenge extremism in all its forms when it is their job to do so.

#47 gingerjon

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:21 AM

The liberal left are far too partial to be some kind of "guardians of free speech".


It's just as well that they're not then.
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#48 tim2

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:42 AM

What on earth is the "liberal left"?


You can be liberal (i.e. supporting social liberties such as democracy, free speech, personal choice) whilst being left wing economically (government ownership of means of production, services etc.). You can also have those left wing economic policies and be totalitarian (no democracy, no freedom of speech etc.) It's easier to be the second of these if you are in power....

The same applies applies on the right. Right wing libertarians in the USA have a very interesting mix of policies that are utterly unacceptable to the Christian right and Republicans in general and they poll at less than 1%.
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#49 gingerjon

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:47 AM

Right wing libertarians in the USA have a very interesting mix of policies that are utterly unacceptable to the Christian right and Republicans in general and they poll at less than 1%.


The relative success of the Libertarian Party - although to be honest it strikes me as a non religious protest vote in a lot of cases - is one of the more interesting outcomes of the election. And it is interesting how a lot of people opposed to them on the (by US terms) left assume that they are equivalent to Republicans.
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#50 Steve May

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:52 AM

There were millions of German etc soldiers killed in the 1st ww, too.As we approach the centenary of the start of this terrible war, maybe we should spare a thought for those, too and in the name of humanity join with Germany in rememberance.


At the risk of developing a habit of quoting from things on this thread, there's a very moving moment in Goodbye Mr Chips.when Chips reads a list of school alumni who have been killed in the Great War and includes a former German Master who has died fighting for Germany on the Western Front.

It's not an easy question to answer. Should we remember those who fought for the Nazis? They fought in an evil cause, but they themselves were ordinary men, possibly good men, in a dreadful situation.

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#51 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:55 PM

True, there are some notable exceptions.


no

what you are saying is the exception.

what you are saying has no place in left/liberal thinking.

What you are describing is the thinking of ignorant individuals who have failed to follow their ideas through.

There are quite a few people on this forum who's thinking covers the left/liberal spectrum. I'm willing to bet that not one of them think the way you say.
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#52 Saintslass

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:01 PM

It seems to me that a lot of people think free speech is basically the right to say whatever you want without being challenged on it and then they see argument against them as some kind of affront to their basic human rights.

Some people may interpret it that way. However, I don't.

#53 Saintslass

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:02 PM

The same applies applies on the right. Right wing libertarians in the USA have a very interesting mix of policies that are utterly unacceptable to the Christian right and Republicans in general and they poll at less than 1%.

There is a longstanding right wing libertarian tradition in this country too.

#54 WearyRhino

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:09 PM

There is a longstanding right wing libertarian tradition in this country too.


Yes, they're a horrible bunch.

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#55 Methven Hornet

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:14 PM

The trouble with the liberal left and their tradition of "challenging ideas" that they don't like is that they only do this to white conservatives or the white far-right. Other extremists are tolerated on the grounds of "it's their culture" (unless they are Jewish).


The trouble is that you make the mistake of believing your own stereotypes.
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#56 gingerjon

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:15 PM

There is a longstanding right wing libertarian tradition in this country too.


Who?
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#57 Methven Hornet

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:34 PM

You can be liberal (i.e. supporting social liberties such as democracy, free speech, personal choice) whilst being left wing economically (government ownership of means of production, services etc.). You can also have those left wing economic policies and be totalitarian (no democracy, no freedom of speech etc.) It's easier to be the second of these if you are in power....

The same applies applies on the right. Right wing libertarians in the USA have a very interesting mix of policies that are utterly unacceptable to the Christian right and Republicans in general and they poll at less than 1%.


While there are people who will quite happily describe themselves as "liberal- left" (eg a Lib-Dem group), the description is often used as an insult by some on the right. I believe it's an attempt to ultilise the pejorative meaning the word "liberal" has in the States, but is quite meaningless over here.
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#58 Methven Hornet

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:13 PM

Very interesting. I haven't worn a poppy in years although I buy at least one every year. I think I prefer the Scottish groups take on things to the RBL's.

On twitter (so the caveat is right there) it's being said that it was the EDL (or people linked to the EDL) who complained to Kent Police about the poppy burning photo.


Interestingly, the presence at Remembrance services of the EDL, BNP, NF, or any other fringe neo-Nazi or far-right grouping, would be considered as grossly offensive by the organisers. I believe they have been kept away from such commemorations in the past; quite fitting given the circumstances.
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#59 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:37 PM

I wore a poppy this year in USA,and answered the questions about the wearing of poppy's in Britain.Over in USA they have memorial day in early summer and Veterans day on 11-11,and its doesn't seem to have the solemnity we have in Britain.
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
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#60 gingerjon

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:49 PM

I wore a poppy this year in USA,and answered the questions about the wearing of poppy's in Britain.Over in USA they have memorial day in early summer and Veterans day on 11-11,and its doesn't seem to have the solemnity we have in Britain.


They wear the poppy in Canada, I believe.
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