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They fought and died for our freedom


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#61 Shadow

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:13 PM

I wore a poppy this year in USA,and answered the questions about the wearing of poppy's in Britain.Over in USA they have memorial day in early summer and Veterans day on 11-11,and its doesn't seem to have the solemnity we have in Britain.


And yet it is a tradition started in the USA http://en.wikipedia....membrance_poppy
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#62 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 05:28 PM

no

what you are saying is the exception.

what you are saying has no place in left/liberal thinking.

What you are describing is the thinking of ignorant individuals who have failed to follow their ideas through.

There are quite a few people on this forum who's thinking covers the left/liberal spectrum. I'm willing to bet that not one of them think the way you say.


A custom more honoured in breech, I'm afraid.

#63 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 05:29 PM

The trouble is that you make the mistake of believing your own stereotypes.


Who doesn't?

They are, after all, my labels.

#64 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 05:49 PM

A custom more honoured in breech, I'm afraid.


I haven't a clue what you are talking about: the term you use seems meaningless.
Either what you say is true or it isn't.
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#65 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 05:57 PM

I haven't a clue what you are talking about: the term you use seems meaningless.
Either what you say is true or it isn't.


Meaningless to you not meaningless to others.

#66 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:45 PM

Meaningless to you not meaningless to others.

That's what I said


I wasn't speaking on behalf of 'others'

Where do you get the idea that 'culture' excuses normally intolerable behaviour being a part of 'left/liberal' thought and discourse?

The notion is alien and repulsive to me and I have only come across it amongst misguided public servants when they deal with situations badly.

To brand an entire, albeit extremely loosely defined school of thought in this way is as offensive as it is silly and prejudiced
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#67 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:03 PM

I am talking about how people behave in practice not what might be said in books. In practice those who have an obsession with the extremism of the BNP / EDL often turn a blind eye to other extremist groups. The Sinn Fein / IRA are a case in point, I've seen the Guardian give Gerry Adams a chance to write his opinion pieces.

#68 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:20 PM

I am talking about how people behave in practice not what might be said in books. In practice those who have an obsession with the extremism of the BNP / EDL often turn a blind eye to other extremist groups. The Sinn Fein / IRA are a case in point, I've seen the Guardian give Gerry Adams a chance to write his opinion pieces.


How on earth does that relate to people of 'left/liberal' thinking people supposedly excusing inappropriate behaviour on the basis of 'culture' even if it were true. As it happens, whether you or I like it or not, Adams is now a highly placed mainstream politician, democratically elected. It's not surprising he contributes to the mainstream media.
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#69 Shadow

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:22 PM

I am talking about how people behave in practice not what might be said in books. In practice those who have an obsession with the extremism of the BNP / EDL often turn a blind eye to other extremist groups. The Sinn Fein / IRA are a case in point, I've seen the Guardian give Gerry Adams a chance to write his opinion pieces.


Freedom of speech applies to people you don't like as well as those you do. That's the important thing about it. If the BNP/ EDL had anyone capable of stringing two words together he'd probably get invited to write a piece for the Guardian as well.
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#70 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:23 PM

So when does Nick Griffen get his column?

It's clear that a terrorist whose group engaged in ethnic cleansing and drug dealing as well as deliberately targetting of civilians is okay just as long as he comes from a group deemed "cultural" by the Guardian.

I hardly imagine that if the IRA's victims had largely been non-white, they would be letting him write opinion pieces.

#71 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:25 PM

Freedom of speech applies to people you don't like as well as those you do. That's the important thing about it. If the BNP/ EDL had anyone capable of stringing two words together he'd probably get invited to write a piece for the Guardian as well.


Freedom of speech means that you don't ban An Phoblacht, it doesn't mean that you give terrorists a platform. And no the Guardian will not be giving the BNP / EDL any column width regardless of how well educated and stylish the writing might be. It doesn't fit their world view.

#72 Shadow

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:27 PM

That would be the same Nick Griffin that was on Question Time?
The one who is interviewed with monotonous regularity by those right wing extremists the BBC.
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#73 Phil

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:28 PM

There is a longstanding right wing libertarian tradition in this country too.


at the risk of derailing the thread, the original Libertarians were left wingers opposed to what they saw as the authoritarian tendencies in Marxism a tendency which became more pronounced during the Leninist era.

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#74 Shadow

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:30 PM

Freedom of speech means that you don't ban An Phoblacht, it doesn't mean that you give terrorists a platform. And no the Guardian will not be giving the BNP / EDL any column width regardless of how well educated and stylish the writing might be. It doesn't fit their world view.


So the Guardian is the only place freedom of speech can be expressed then is it?
What about Richard Littlejohn and John Gaunt's deranged ramblings? If they aren't in the Guardian does that count as evidence of Freedom of Speech being crushed by the liberal intelligentsia?
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#75 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:42 PM

So when does Nick Griffen get his column?

It's clear that a terrorist whose group engaged in ethnic cleansing and drug dealing as well as deliberately targetting of civilians is okay just as long as he comes from a group deemed "cultural" by the Guardian.

I hardly imagine that if the IRA's victims had largely been non-white, they would be letting him write opinion pieces.


Perhaps when he's a senior government figure democratically elected
griffin gets plenty of media exposure anyway
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#76 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:47 PM

That would be the same Nick Griffin that was on Question Time?
The one who is interviewed with monotonous regularity by those right wing extremists the BBC.


My point was about the Guardian not the BBC. The BBC are obligated to provide a platform for those with odious views if they have enough support. It's called being neutral. Thus Nick Griffen and Gerry Adams (among others) get invited to give their views.

The Guardian are not. They don't have to give Gerry Adams a platform, they choose to. They don't have to give Nick Griffen one and they don't. That's their ideology in a nutshell.

#77 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:51 PM

So the Guardian is the only place freedom of speech can be expressed then is it?
What about Richard Littlejohn and John Gaunt's deranged ramblings? If they aren't in the Guardian does that count as evidence of Freedom of Speech being crushed by the liberal intelligentsia?


No, thankfully there are other avenues for free speech, the Guardian does not constitute a neutral platform for political discussion. And before anyone brings it up neither does the Mail but at least they don't give terrorists a column.

#78 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:53 PM

Perhaps when he's a senior government figure democratically elected
griffin gets plenty of media exposure anyway


He's a senior figure in Northern Ireland, his party gets less than 1% across the UK. Even allowing for him being a senior figure, they don't give Cameron, Clegg or Milliband columns and they haven't been in on discussions of how to kill civilians with bombs.

#79 Saintslass

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:48 PM

at the risk of derailing the thread, the original Libertarians were left wingers opposed to what they saw as the authoritarian tendencies in Marxism a tendency which became more pronounced during the Leninist era.

I was thinking further back than that, when libertarian and liberal meant the same thing. But no matter.

#80 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:49 PM

He's a senior figure in Northern Ireland, his party gets less than 1% across the UK. Even allowing for him being a senior figure, they don't give Cameron, Clegg or Milliband columns and they haven't been in on discussions of how to kill civilians with bombs.

correct

Northern Ireland is in the UK. Issues relating bto it are important to the UK generally.
Cameron Clegg and Milliband are incessantly in the media putting forward their ideas, policies and so on.


the association that Adams was and probably is associated with went far beyond bombs in getting their way. Whether we like it or not they have widespread support and are part of the democratic process. It isn't about liking them,
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