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#81 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:49 PM

I was thinking further back than that, when libertarian and liberal meant the same thing. But no matter.

no not the same at all ever
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#82 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:00 PM

correct

Northern Ireland is in the UK. Issues relating bto it are important to the UK generally.
Cameron Clegg and Milliband are incessantly in the media putting forward their ideas, policies and so on.


the association that Adams was and probably is associated with went far beyond bombs in getting their way. Whether we like it or not they have widespread support and are part of the democratic process. It isn't about liking them,


No, but the Guardian don't do this for any other group. They tolerate "alternative views" but only if they are far-left and anti-British, you won't see loyalist terror groups getting the same access.

Nor do they have any need to do this, everybody else can cover Northern Ireland without giving the chance to a spokesman for a terrorist group. You only need to report on the issues. You can discuss what Sinn Fein believe without letting them push their propaganda.

Edited by Northern Sol, 13 November 2012 - 10:03 PM.


#83 Saintslass

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:11 PM

no not the same at all ever

Er yes.

#84 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:23 PM

Er yes.


ok
expand
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#85 Marauder

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:43 AM

No, but the Guardian don't do this for any other group. They tolerate "alternative views" but only if they are far-left and anti-British, you won't see loyalist terror groups getting the same access.

Nor do they have any need to do this, everybody else can cover Northern Ireland without giving the chance to a spokesman for a terrorist group. You only need to report on the issues. You can discuss what Sinn Fein believe without letting them push their propaganda.

Loyalist terror groups where far worse than PIRA.
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#86 Saintslass

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:22 PM

ok
expand

No. Because that itsn't the topic of this thread. But I'm sure Google is your friend if you would like to find out more about the liberal Tory tradition. You may find it harder to establish that libertarian and liberal were once two words used interchangeably (and indeed I still tend to use them this way) as that might require access to the Oxford Dictionary. But you might get lucky.

#87 Severus

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:41 PM

No. Because that itsn't the topic of this thread. But I'm sure Google is your friend if you would like to find out more about the liberal Tory tradition. You may find it harder to establish that libertarian and liberal were once two words used interchangeably (and indeed I still tend to use them this way) as that might require access to the Oxford Dictionary. But you might get lucky.

Don't know about you Chris but I'm convinced.
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#88 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:50 PM

They wear the poppy in Canada, I believe.

Yes I have been corrected by an american mate,He said they used to wear poppy's years ago,and he told me about a tv show called broadwalk empire set in the 20s when it showed people wearing poppy's
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
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#89 slowdive

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:56 PM

I am talking about how people behave in practice not what might be said in books. In practice those who have an obsession with the extremism of the BNP / EDL often turn a blind eye to other extremist groups. The Sinn Fein / IRA are a case in point, I've seen the Guardian give Gerry Adams a chance to write his opinion pieces.

What's the obsession with the Guardian? Whether the Guardian gives room for Gerry Adams and not Nick Griffin has nothing whatsoever to do with free speech. The Guardian is a left leaning newspaper so why would it's readers be interested in the ill thought out ramblings of the BNP? The BBC on the other hand is a public broadcaster and should offer the opportunity for people with different views to express their opinions. There is a big difference there.
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#90 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:08 PM

No. Because that itsn't the topic of this thread. But I'm sure Google is your friend if you would like to find out more about the liberal Tory tradition. You may find it harder to establish that libertarian and liberal were once two words used interchangeably (and indeed I still tend to use them this way) as that might require access to the Oxford Dictionary. But you might get lucky.


then why introduce it into the thread

using these words interchangeably is a mistake. They have different meanings and always have had.
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#91 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:09 PM

Don't know about you Chris but I'm convinced.


bloody hell
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#92 Severus

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:15 PM

bloody hell

;)
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#93 gingerjon

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:17 PM

What's the obsession with the Guardian? Whether the Guardian gives room for Gerry Adams and not Nick Griffin has nothing whatsoever to do with free speech. The Guardian is a left leaning newspaper so why would it's readers be interested in the ill thought out ramblings of the BNP? The BBC on the other hand is a public broadcaster and should offer the opportunity for people with different views to express their opinions. There is a big difference there.


The BNP have had a platform in the Guardian.
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#94 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:21 PM

What's the obsession with the Guardian? Whether the Guardian gives room for Gerry Adams and not Nick Griffin has nothing whatsoever to do with free speech. The Guardian is a left leaning newspaper so why would it's readers be interested in the ill thought out ramblings of the BNP? The BBC on the other hand is a public broadcaster and should offer the opportunity for people with different views to express their opinions. There is a big difference there.


Surely as a serious newspaper it's interested in the thoughts of all political figures. I'm pretty sure Griffin and others have featured a fair bit in the paper. People who read what were once the broadsheets tend to want to know what's going on.

The question is, why does Adams get a regular gig on the guardian and not Griffin.

1 It's their newspaper and nobody can tell them who to write for it.

2 Adams and for that matter McGuinness are significant figures politically and historically. He almost defines the interface between freedom fighter and terrorist. But what is important is that he(they), have been major players in reconciliation in Northern Ireland and all that it means. They are part of the process in healing the wounds in Northern Irelandf(some of which they have been responsible for causing it has to be said).

3 Griffin is a no mark. He has nothing to say that you can't listen to on any given night in say the reservoir tavern in Keighley. He's a failure within his own movement. He is as likely as not to say things that are untrue.
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#95 Northern Sol

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:52 PM

What's the obsession with the Guardian? Whether the Guardian gives room for Gerry Adams and not Nick Griffin has nothing whatsoever to do with free speech. The Guardian is a left leaning newspaper so why would it's readers be interested in the ill thought out ramblings of the BNP? The BBC on the other hand is a public broadcaster and should offer the opportunity for people with different views to express their opinions. There is a big difference there.


That was exactly my point (not "an obssession"), the left are not guardians of free speech as Sev would have us believe nor do they challenge extremism as others suggest, They tolerate extremism and even give it a platform but only if it "the right kind of extremism".

#96 Northern Sol

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:52 PM

The BNP have had a platform in the Guardian.


When?

#97 Northern Sol

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:54 PM

Surely as a serious newspaper it's interested in the thoughts of all political figures. I'm pretty sure Griffin and others have featured a fair bit in the paper. People who read what were once the broadsheets tend to want to know what's going on.

The question is, why does Adams get a regular gig on the guardian and not Griffin.

1 It's their newspaper and nobody can tell them who to write for it.

2 Adams and for that matter McGuinness are significant figures politically and historically. He almost defines the interface between freedom fighter and terrorist. But what is important is that he(they), have been major players in reconciliation in Northern Ireland and all that it means. They are part of the process in healing the wounds in Northern Irelandf(some of which they have been responsible for causing it has to be said).

3 Griffin is a no mark. He has nothing to say that you can't listen to on any given night in say the reservoir tavern in Keighley. He's a failure within his own movement. He is as likely as not to say things that are untrue.


Unlike Adams who is a paragon of honesty.

The Guardian can do what they like, it's their paper.

But they are hardly challenging extremism, they are endorsing it (or the right kind of it).

#98 Northern Sol

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:58 PM

Let's go back to Sev's statement:-

FWIW IMO the left are more likely to be on the side of free speech than the right. As we all seemed to agree on, free speech must mean that all views and opinions, no matter how abhorrent you find them, should be able to be legitimately aired.



I seem to remember that rather a lot of people on the left seem to be keen on throwing bottles and bricks at the BNP. I wonder where all those "Bash the fash" stickers came from when the BNP held a rally in Bristol.

Commitment to free speech, I don't think so.

#99 gingerjon

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 04:03 PM

When?


Couple of years ago. I haven't looked it up but I do seem to remember Griffin getting a page on Comment is Free.
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#100 Northern Sol

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 04:15 PM

If that is true then good for the Guardian.




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