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They fought and died for our freedom


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#161 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:17 PM

I think this thread is on the way to being locked,and When its sensible debate I find it very interesting
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
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#162 Methven Hornet

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:26 PM

An independent Ulster is what is known as the "Ulster third way". It's associated with unionists and the occasional nationalist as well. When I say "unionists" I mean that they were unionists up to the point when they started coming out with the 3rd way stuff and would probably still consider themselves British.

Loyalists might be loyal to the crown as you say but not to the state since they take up arms outside its authority. Unionists aren't always nice people but they prefer state power to violent militias; partly because they often come from the historically dominant Church of Ireland.


I was thinking further back, when groups and individuals within loyalist organisations (mostly UDA linked) tentatively advocated moves towards independence for Ulster.

http://en.wikipedia....ter_nationalism

After the [Ulster Workers Council]strike loyalism began to embrace Ulster nationalist ideas, with the UDA in particular advocating this position.[2] Firm proposals for an independent Ulster were produced in 1976 by the Ulster Loyalist Central Co-ordinating Committee and in 1977 by the UDA's New Ulster Political Research Group. The NUPRG document, Beyond the Religious Divide has been recently republished with a new introduction. John McMichael, as candidate for the UDA-linked Ulster Loyalist Democratic Party, campaigned for the1982 South Belfast by-election on the basis of negotiations towards independence. However McMichael's poor showing of 576 saw the plans largely abandoned by the UDA soon after, although the policy was still considered by the Ulster Democratic Party under Ray Smallwoods. A short-lived Ulster Independence Party also operated, although the assassination of its leader John McKeague in 1982 saw it largely disappear

Now, presumably this independent Ulster would have been linked to the Crown in some way - pretty difficult, I would have thought, to be loyalist republican (in the context of Ulster).
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#163 Marauder

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:31 PM

True. Still the loyalists were worse though because Paiseley was rude. Not that Paiseley was a loyalist, he was a hardline unionist that on occasion flirted with loyalism.

But in most cases the IRA targetted Protestants and unsurprisingly most of their civilian victims were Protestants.

http://www.cfr.org/terrorist-organizations/northern-ireland-loyalist-paramilitaries-uk-extremists/p9274
Have the loyalist groups targeted civilians?

Yes—and more frequently than the IRA. Between 1968 and 1998, loyalist paramilitaries killed an estimated 864 civilians (most of them Catholic), compared with an estimated 728 civilians (most of them Protestant) killed by the IRA. Experts say loyalist groups have often acted out of religious hatred, while the IRA has more often targeted British security officers—killing more than 1,000 of them—in an effort to further its political goal of ejecting the British from Northern Ireland .
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#164 Northern Sol

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:45 PM

We are talking bombs not shootings.

  • The UVF’s 1966 shooting of four Catholics, one fatally, outside a Belfast pub. This attack was the first major act of sectarian violence since Ireland was divided, and it spurred Catholic activism, which soon turned violent.
  • The UVF’s 1969 bombing of a power station near Belfast. Initially attributed to the IRA, this attack also helped trigger the Troubles.
  • The UVF’s 1971 bombing of a Belfastpub, which killed fifteen people.
  • A pair of UVF bombings in Dublin and Monaghan, both in the Republic of Ireland, on May 17, 1974, that killed thirty-three civilians, making this day the deadliest of the conflict.
  • Not bad for starters


That's why I said "since the 70s".

The loyalists stopped using bombs then.

Not because they were nice people but they just didn't have the know-how.

#165 Northern Sol

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:48 PM

http://www.cfr.org/t...xtremists/p9274
Have the loyalist groups targeted civilians?

Yes—and more frequently than the IRA. Between 1968 and 1998, loyalist paramilitaries killed an estimated 864 civilians (most of them Catholic), compared with an estimated 728 civilians (most of them Protestant) killed by the IRA. Experts say loyalist groups have often acted out of religious hatred, while the IRA has more often targeted British security officers—killing more than 1,000 of them—in an effort to further its political goal of ejecting the British from Northern Ireland .


I'm not sure how that contradicts anything I said. I'm not interest in who was worse. Even if the loyalists were worse that wouldn't make the republicans any better.

#166 Methven Hornet

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:49 PM

They're the same thing as I and others have repeatedly stated. Now back up your claim that they're different. Sources would also be an advantage but you've just stated you wouldn't know what they are.


I use the CAIN website (Conflict Archive on the INternet) maintained by the University of Ulster as a source on the Northern Irish conflict. The following definitions are in its glossary.

http://cain.ulst.ac..../glossary.htm#L

Loyalist
Strictly the term Loyalist refers to one who is loyal to the British Crown. The term in Northern Ireland context is used by many commentators to imply that the person gives tacit or actual support the use of force by paramilitary groups to 'defend the union' with Britain.

Unionist
In Northern Ireland the term is used to describe those who wish to see the union with Britain maintained. The majority of those people who are from the Protestant community are Unionist. It should be noted that not all Unionists support Loyalist groups.

The terms describe two similar but different things (if that makes sense) and are not interchangeable. In almost all circumstances a Loyalist will be a Unionist (although, as I've pointed out, not all Loyalists at all times supported the political Union). Most Unionists would react in horror at being described as a Loyalist.

The biggest difference to most people would be the Loyalists link to violence, although Loyalism did attempt to win democratic representation (with limited success) after the Belfast Agreement. That said, hardline Unionism (which you initially compared with Loyalism) did associate itself with physical force at times.

Edited by Methven Hornet, 20 November 2012 - 07:50 PM.

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#167 Northern Sol

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:51 PM

I was thinking further back, when groups and individuals within loyalist organisations (mostly UDA linked) tentatively advocated moves towards independence for Ulster.

http://en.wikipedia....ter_nationalism

After the [Ulster Workers Council]strike loyalism began to embrace Ulster nationalist ideas, with the UDA in particular advocating this position.[2] Firm proposals for an independent Ulster were produced in 1976 by the Ulster Loyalist Central Co-ordinating Committee and in 1977 by the UDA's New Ulster Political Research Group. The NUPRG document, Beyond the Religious Divide has been recently republished with a new introduction. John McMichael, as candidate for the UDA-linked Ulster Loyalist Democratic Party, campaigned for the1982 South Belfast by-election on the basis of negotiations towards independence. However McMichael's poor showing of 576 saw the plans largely abandoned by the UDA soon after, although the policy was still considered by the Ulster Democratic Party under Ray Smallwoods. A short-lived Ulster Independence Party also operated, although the assassination of its leader John McKeague in 1982 saw it largely disappear

Now, presumably this independent Ulster would have been linked to the Crown in some way - pretty difficult, I would have thought, to be loyalist republican (in the context of Ulster).


True but I think this was always a minority of loyalists.

You are right though that it does make sense to be a unionist in favour of a republic but not in favour of separatism but a loyalist could be a separatist but never republican.

But unless you had holidays in Derry this is all nonsense.

#168 Methven Hornet

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:52 PM

I think this thread is on the way to being locked,and When its sensible debate I find it very interesting


I suspect you are correct, which is a shame as it is interesting.
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#169 Methven Hornet

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:53 PM

Oh, and there have always been Catholic unionists (although they may have kept a low profile).
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#170 Northern Sol

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:57 PM

I use the CAIN website (Conflict Archive on the INternet) maintained by the University of Ulster as a source on the Northern Irish conflict. The following definitions are in its glossary.

http://cain.ulst.ac..../glossary.htm#L

Loyalist
Strictly the term Loyalist refers to one who is loyal to the British Crown. The term in Northern Ireland context is used by many commentators to imply that the person gives tacit or actual support the use of force by paramilitary groups to 'defend the union' with Britain.

Unionist
In Northern Ireland the term is used to describe those who wish to see the union with Britain maintained. The majority of those people who are from the Protestant community are Unionist. It should be noted that not all Unionists support Loyalist groups.

The terms describe two similar but different things (if that makes sense) and are not interchangeable. In almost all circumstances a Loyalist will be a Unionist (although, as I've pointed out, not all Loyalists at all times supported the political Union). Most Unionists would react in horror at being described as a Loyalist.

The biggest difference to most people would be the Loyalists link to violence, although Loyalism did attempt to win democratic representation (with limited success) after the Belfast Agreement. That said, hardline Unionism (which you initially compared with Loyalism) did associate itself with physical force at times.


I wouldn't disagree with that.

As I am sure you are aware, there were differences between the English and Scots settlers in Ulster and the Protestant ascendancy was really an Anglican ascendancy. This being the reason why Adams can praise Presbyterianism and Methodism since they represent working class Protestantism but not the Church of Ireland.

Mainstream unionism is rooted in the Anglican, English tradition and is closely connected to the mainland Conservative party. Hardline unionism is rooted in the same working class Ulster Scots communities that the various loyalist groups comes from. Hence there is a degree of overlap even if they wouldn't care to be called "loyalist".

#171 Methven Hornet

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:02 PM

Didn't they :wacko: PIRA's first contact was with the local newspaper office, if the newspapers failed to pass the info on in time do you think that they would openly state this fact.


Clearly PIRA didn't give adequate warnings; the casualty lists are a testament to this. News agencies are not part of the security apparatus - they are there for gathering and disseminating news, not assisting paramilitaries in their operations. If the process put in place by those paramilitaries did not always work then it was no ones fault but the bombers.

The warning systems were not there out of any consideration for the potential victims but out of a concern that 'bad publicity' would cost them support from their communities
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#172 Saint Billinge

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:08 PM

I think this thread is on the way to being locked,and When its sensible debate I find it very interesting


I know a good locksmith! :D

#173 Kenilworth Tiger

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:01 PM

Mornington crescent
Now then, it's a race between Sandie....and Fairburn....and the little man is in........yeees he's in.

I, just like those Castleford supporters felt that the ball should have gone to David Plange but he put the bit betwen his teeth...and it was a try

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#174 Methven Hornet

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:30 PM

Mornington crescent


Wopuld Ltd.
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#175 Kenilworth Tiger

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:33 PM

Wopuld Ltd.


eh?
Now then, it's a race between Sandie....and Fairburn....and the little man is in........yeees he's in.

I, just like those Castleford supporters felt that the ball should have gone to David Plange but he put the bit betwen his teeth...and it was a try

Kevin Ward - best player I have ever seen

Posted Image

The real Mick Gledhill is what you see on here, a Bradford fan ........, but deep down knows that Bradford are just not good enough to challenge the likes of Leeds & St Helens.


#176 Marauder

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:42 PM

That's why I said "since the 70s".

The loyalists stopped using bombs then.

Not because they were nice people but they just didn't have the know-how.

Yer they started riding motorbikes into Catholic areas and cutting the throats of the first person they saw; man, woman or child.
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#177 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:49 PM

Of course it was a war, we may not have attacked the mainland (unproven because there are all kinds of rumours of SAS activity) but that just makes it a contained war.

I agree that Northern Ireland was not a war, neither the IRA nor the loyalists made any effort to follow the Geneva Convention.


the falklands campaign was a limited operation to recover the Falkand islands. All militaery activity was conducted with that aim.
This pl;aced clear and strict operational limitations upon the UK military.
The UK was not 'at war' with Argentina.
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#178 Marauder

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:55 PM

Clearly PIRA didn't give adequate warnings; the casualty lists are a testament to this. News agencies are not part of the security apparatus - they are there for gathering and disseminating news, not assisting paramilitaries in their operations. If the process put in place by those paramilitaries did not always work then it was no ones fault but the bombers.

The warning systems were not there out of any consideration for the potential victims but out of a concern that 'bad publicity' would cost them support from their communities


Of course it was there as a warning system, if PIRA didn't target the military it then designed it's attack to disrupt the business sector of the province.
I've proved that the loyalists killed more innocent people with bombs than PIRA and it's associates.
News agencies where a part of the system if you like it or not (Best read your books from the Uni of Ulster) and the chosen method of PIRA
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#179 Methven Hornet

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:56 PM

Mornington crescent


Eh?
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#180 Northern Sol

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:14 PM

Of course it was there as a warning system, if PIRA didn't target the military it then designed it's attack to disrupt the business sector of the province.
I've proved that the loyalists killed more innocent people with bombs than PIRA and it's associates.
News agencies where a part of the system if you like it or not (Best read your books from the Uni of Ulster) and the chosen method of PIRA


No, you proved that they killed more civilians (undefined) by various means.

But nobody seems to care much.

It doesn't say anything about the IRA.