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manchester rugby club 1960 - not a merger thread


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#121 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 02:19 PM

Steve,

Hunslet did fine with their name and beat Leeds in the 1892 cup final (YRU) to be number one in Leeds

Leeds had been able to drop from Leeds St. Johns because the original Leeds club had taken to being called "Yorkshire" (wanderers) so the Leeds name singular was available.

But Hunslet did not need it. In time half the city supported Leeds and half Hunslet. Pretty much like Liverpool/Everton.

Leeds dominated Hunslet in the end because they attracted the money being from the "monied" northern side of the city.

Had it been the other way round Hunslet would today be Aston Villa and Leeds Birmingham City........

I have always been fascinated as to how things in the city would have looked if Leeds Parish church survived to well into the 20th century?If they had it could have been to the disadvantage of Leeds city AFC
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#122 The Parksider

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:43 AM

I have always been fascinated as to how things in the city would have looked if Leeds Parish church survived to well into the 20th century?If they had it could have been to the disadvantage of Leeds city AFC


A professional soccer club was inevitable for the city, Holbecks's ground becoming available was the only reason it landed at Elland Road. It could have landed in Harehills, Kirkstall, or even Headingley, if events had been just that bit different. Parish could have stymied the growth of Leeds RL.

#123 keighley

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:41 PM

A professional soccer club was inevitable for the city, Holbecks's ground becoming available was the only reason it landed at Elland Road. It could have landed in Harehills, Kirkstall, or even Headingley, if events had been just that bit different. Parish could have stymied the growth of Leeds RL.


The first Leeds soccer club was i believe Leeds City and they went bust. The second go at it was Leeds United who were garbage for years until the Don Revie era. Now they are in a lower division with more cash crises in the recent past. Despite all that record of underachievment they are still the biggest sporting club in the City. Maybe if Leeds Parish Church or even Holbeck, who didn t quit until they lost a playoff for promotion to St Helens, had gone from strength to strength then the rise of soccer in Leeds might have not been so easy and it might have struggled and failed as it has in Halifax and Bradford.

#124 Northern Sol

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:15 PM

I speak as a United fan but on what grounds could you say that soccer has suceeded in Leeds?

#125 The Parksider

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:20 PM

The first Leeds soccer club was i believe Leeds City


Hunslet A.F.C. pre-dated Leeds City by 27 years.

#126 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:55 PM

Leeds City did not go bust,in fact they were developing into a very good side,but they were made into a scape goat they did what a lot of Association football clubs did in wwI made illegal payments to guest players,and were expelled from the league.That is one of the explanations why some Leeds united supporters call man utd by that four letter word

Edited by fieldofclothofgold, 26 November 2012 - 10:59 PM.

but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#127 keighley

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:52 AM

Hunslet A.F.C. pre-dated Leeds City by 27 years.


Fair enough but were they in the Football League?

#128 The Parksider

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:00 AM

Fair enough but were they in the Football League?


There was no football league when they were founded, and they were playing in enclosed grounds, taking gate money and paying players long before Liverpool and Manchester United, who weren't in the football league either until after 1890 and 1900. so what relevance does that have I don't know, unless we have to shift the goal posts (geddit :lol: ) so I can be proved "wrong".
Soccer in Leeds had a very strong rugby game to contend with first, that's what hampered it's development, but it won through to dominate Rugby massively.

#129 keighley

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:16 PM

There was no football league when they were founded, and they were playing in enclosed grounds, taking gate money and paying players long before Liverpool and Manchester United, who weren't in the football league either until after 1890 and 1900. so what relevance does that have I don't know, unless we have to shift the goal posts (geddit :lol: ) so I can be proved "wrong".
Soccer in Leeds had a very strong rugby game to contend with first, that's what hampered it's development, but it won through to dominate Rugby massively.


I think you were making a point for the sake of it. Hunslet AFC, whose existence I had never heard of, predated Leeds City. I do not deny it. The point I was making was that the Football League made a conscious decision to target Rugby league in its strongholds in Yorkshire and encouraged Manningham to join their league and encouraged Leeds City to challenge Rugby's dominance in Leeds. They did not seek out the older Hunslet AFC to support this initiative.

I also have no dispute that Soccer in Leeds is a bigger game than Rugby League even though the Leeds United team is down in the lower leagues. Their crowds are significantly bigger than those at Headingley.

Edited by keighley, 27 November 2012 - 08:18 PM.


#130 yanto

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:53 PM

Yes - Workington RUFC play in black and white.


From the Workington website
"Rugby Union had League competitions in the 1890s - went over to the new governing body in 1898. It was around this time that the Club acquired its nickname, the Zebras.
The Club have always played in black and white, originally in vertical stripes but later in horizontal hoops and, so the story goes, a group of soldiers returned from the Boer War, and not impressed by the Team's play that day, described them as running around like a herd of Zebras. The name stuck."


Want some weird nicknames or club names? Come to Holland.
I have coached " The Bassets" a union club from Sassenheim who's name comes from the fact one of the founders owned a Basset hound and while deciding on a club name the dog walked across the bar and it was decided the Bassets it was.
RC The Hookers is another club I coached...gets loads of hits on its website...amazing how many people search for Hookers on the internet.
Nothing to do with the number 2 or ladies of the night but the club are based in Hoek van Holland (Hook of Holland).

RC The Smugglers,RC Wild Rovers,Pink Panthers,Big Stones,Scrumboks,Oysters,Dukes,Ducks,Bokkerijders, Oblix,Wallebys,The Pickwick Players....the list of strange names ,with no indication of the town or city they represent, is wide spread in the Netherlands and 95% of these clubs where started by ex pats in the mid 70's/early 80's.!!!!!

#131 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:41 PM

I think you were making a point for the sake of it. Hunslet AFC, whose existence I had never heard of, predated Leeds City. I do not deny it. The point I was making was that the Football League made a conscious decision to target Rugby league in its strongholds in Yorkshire and encouraged Manningham to join their league and encouraged Leeds City to challenge Rugby's dominance in Leeds. They did not seek out the older Hunslet AFC to support this initiative.

I also have no dispute that Soccer in Leeds is a bigger game than Rugby League even though the Leeds United team is down in the lower leagues. Their crowds are significantly bigger than those at Headingley.

Yes they are,although the the last two crowds at E R have been just over 20,000 and 17,700
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#132 Ullman

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:57 AM

Hull FC also merged with a side called "White Star" in their early days, I think they had something to do with shipping. Edit: IIRC White Star were a shipping company.

Temperance, SHamrocks and Wednesday, All-Blacks are pretty obvious.

Branch Locos were presumably a works side. Islanders and Maoris a curiousity.

I like your reasoning but I think it unlikely that there was any connection between the White Star Line and the Hull White Star club. The White Star Line was based in Liverpool. They had no presence in Hull that I'm aware of.

There's a good reason you'll have heard of the White Star Line though. Titanic was one of theirs.

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#133 gingerjon

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:01 PM

The point I was making was that the Football League made a conscious decision to target Rugby league in its strongholds in Yorkshire and encouraged Manningham to join their league and encouraged Leeds City to challenge Rugby's dominance in Leeds.


They did indeed. And they had a tactic to stop the spread of rugby by ensuring clubs immediately outside the heartlands did not convert (or converted back) - thus preventing an organic national spread of the game.

If you want to understand why rugby league existed only in the heartlands don't look to rugby union, look to professional soccer.
Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#134 The Parksider

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:29 PM

The point I was making was that the Football League made a conscious decision to target Rugby league in its strongholds in Yorkshire and encouraged Manningham to join their league and encouraged Leeds City to challenge Rugby's dominance in Leeds. They did not seek out the older Hunslet AFC to support this initiative.


I don't recognise such an initiative?? Where do you get that from??

The commitee of Hunslet AFC were "sought out" to support the initiative, the club was not actively playing at the time but it was still in existence, and it was a major foundation stone in Leeds City's entry to the FL.

Do your research or you get things completely wrong.

#135 keighley

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:41 PM

I don't recognise such an initiative?? Where do you get that from??

The commitee of Hunslet AFC were "sought out" to support the initiative, the club was not actively playing at the time but it was still in existence, and it was a major foundation stone in Leeds City's entry to the FL.

Do your research or you get things completely wrong.


Well, what you have written there would seem to support my point. City were formed and entered into the Football League to challenge Leeds, Hunslet, Bramley and any other RL team in the Rugby dominated City of that era. I accept your points about Hunslet AFC. I don't know where you think I am but I am not surrounded by reference books in some huge library. Neither am I going to surf the net for hours to be scientifically correct on every little thing. I will let you do all that and gleefully correct me when I am wrong. Mostly I am just relying on things I have read and my often imperfect memory. You can give me a 3 out of 10 if you like.

#136 keighley

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:50 PM

Well, what you have written there would seem to support my point. City were formed and entered into the Football League to challenge Leeds, Hunslet, Bramley and any other RL team in the Rugby dominated City of that era. I accept your points about Hunslet AFC. I don't know where you think I am but I am not surrounded by reference books in some huge library. Neither am I going to surf the net for hours to be scientifically correct on every little thing. I will let you do all that and gleefully correct me when I am wrong. Mostly I am just relying on things I have read and my often imperfect memory. You can give me a 3 out of 10 if you like.

From "THE ELECTION OF CLUBS TO THE FOOTBALL LEAGUE 1899 TO 1939" by Matthew Taylor and John Coyles of de Monfort University

"The election system assisted the Football League in expanding into hitherto-untouched areas of England and Wales, and while crowds and finance were of great significance, some attention should be given to strategic factors. In the 1900s there is some evidence that the League, either at Management Committee level, or through the collective wishes of the clubs, made a conscious effort to expand into areas previously dominated by professional rugby. Graham Williams has referred to the `aggressive recruitment' of clubs from rugby strongholds, while Simon Inglis suggested that by 1903 the League had begun plotting `the colonisation of England at the expense of every other rival organisation in both football and rugby'.79 These comments appear to be supported by the bare facts: Bradford City (1903), Leeds City and Hull City (1905), Oldham Athletic and Bradford Park Avenue (1907) and Huddersfield Town (1910) all came into the Football League from towns with deep rugby traditions. The two Bradford clubs, and Leeds City, were formed from previous members of the Northern Union, while the others had strong rival Northern Union clubs. Moreover, in each club's application to join the League, much was made of the local competition between the codes. Bradford Park Avenue's representative, for example, supported his claim by declaring that his club's decision to take up soccer `meant the extinction of Northern Unionism... in Yorkshire'.80


Parksider, A little bit of research turned up the above. It would appear that there was, as I thought, a co ordinated strategy to challenge RL in its heartlands, coupled with a parallel strategy of expanding into large Towns and Cities. The fact that they also approached Hunslet AFC to assist with Leeds Cities entry and foundation would not seem to detract from the fact that soccer planned tp break the Northern Union monoploy and I guess it worked out well.

#137 marklaspalmas

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:28 PM

Jeez. After 7 pages this thread has actually turned interesting. I never knew about the FL deliberately tragetting NU strongholds, but when you think about it, it's logical. They were far better organised and forward thinking that the RFU, and that logically means that soccer had more to do with RL's geographical confinement than Union. If their own strongholds were under attack, any early expansion thoughts of the NU would have been shelved in favour of consolidation.

 

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#138 The Parksider

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:40 PM

1. I will let you do all that and gleefully correct me when I am wrong. You can give me a 3 out of 10 if you like.

2. Well, what you have written there would seem to support my point. City were formed and entered into the Football League to challenge Leeds, Hunslet, Bramley and any other RL team in the Rugby dominated City of that era.


1. Glee is good. 2 out of 10 :lol:

2. I'd urge you to look at the attempts to get soccer going against a background of failings in the Rugby game at the time post the 1896 split.

I have references to Rugby people actually getting fed up and wanting to try soccer instead.

I'd look at the two Bradford clubs who changed over. I don't think they were enticed, I think they may have changed because they were fed up with Rugby......

Any other views would be welcome. Where's Steve May/Padge etc....

#139 The Parksider

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:52 PM

Jeez. After 7 pages this thread has actually turned interesting. I never knew about the FL deliberately tragetting NU strongholds, but when you think about it, it's logical. They were far better organised and forward thinking that the RFU, and that logically means that soccer had more to do with RL's geographical confinement than Union. If their own strongholds were under attack, any early expansion thoughts of the NU would have been shelved in favour of consolidation.


When Hunslet AFC won the west yorkshire cup at Manninghams NU ground in 1895 their chairman spoke about the good relations between the two games.

What pushed clubs and fans and players more to soccer from Northern Union was the fact that soccer was becoming a national game and Northern Union was becoming more and more regional, there was a heavy drift of interest towards soccer because of that.

The NU consolidated that's true, then switched to a big expansion policy into Wales.

It's worth reading all this up...Fascinating...

#140 marklaspalmas

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:13 PM

When Hunslet AFC won the west yorkshire cup at Manninghams NU ground in 1895 their chairman spoke about the good relations between the two games.

What pushed clubs and fans and players more to soccer from Northern Union was the fact that soccer was becoming a national game and Northern Union was becoming more and more regional, there was a heavy drift of interest towards soccer because of that.

The NU consolidated that's true, then switched to a big expansion policy into Wales.

It's worth reading all this up...Fascinating...


Right, but soccer can only have gone national as a result of a planned expansion programme. What was the RFU and the NU doing while soccer was doing this? Was the split especially ill-timed in terms of gaining footholds in new territory for all codes?

The NU heading to Wales seemed to happen just before WW1. Already a bit late perhaps? Or just badly done? Socio-economic factors would suggest the area was ripe for NU expansion.

Some say soccer is just the easier game to play & follow and that's why it won in the end, regardless of any initiatives undertaken by governing bodies.

Other than Tony Collins and Trevor Delaney, where would I start reading on this?

 

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