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manchester rugby club 1960 - not a merger thread


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#141 The Parksider

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:55 PM

1. Right, but soccer can only have gone national as a result of a planned expansion programme. What was the RFU and the NU doing while soccer was doing this? Was the split especially ill-timed in terms of gaining footholds in new territory for all codes?

2. The NU heading to Wales seemed to happen just before WW1. Already a bit late perhaps? Or just badly done? Socio-economic factors would suggest the area was ripe for NU expansion.

3. Some say soccer is just the easier game to play & follow and that's why it won in the end, regardless of any initiatives undertaken by governing bodies.

4, Other than Tony Collins and Trevor Delaney, where would I start reading on this?


1. No, the round ball game played to various rules e.g. London, Nottingham and sheffield rules. The rules being codified into one game brought several strong regions together, and thus a national game was produced. This enabled clubs to travel farther afield for better fixtures and more money, money, money and money. I don't think there was planned expansion of the "sport" just a nationwide ambition to get on the national professional game of soccer bandwagon.

2. Yes Wales and the north of England were soul mates but travelling costs were ruinous of the project and TBH I think those that stayed in the NU game were largely parochial people (as they often are today - CRUSADERS OUT!!! LONDON OUT!!!)and were not happy with long range expansion.

3. I have always said that Mark. Rugby was OK on the playing fields of the public schools but in the industrial cities it was a hard game to play. Even today soccer rules because it's fundamentally easier to play. Many lads who are in two minds I have worked with in junior clubs are in doubt regarding the physical element of Rugby.

4. Jeez where do I start Mark?? There was an explosion of RL books in the 1980's and beyond the club histories came histories like those on the split from Collins and Delaney, but also look at histories of soccer and RU, there's a great history of RL in wales from London League Publications etc etc (ANY HELP FOR MARK HERE ANYONE) the problem is most books are a bit "narrow" they are about soccer or about RL or about RU so it is hard to be able to recommend any books that deal with the historical relationship between the three codes.

I know how that happened in Leeds because I went to the library and read it all up from newspapers at the time, but a nationwide study is something I have not seen and to be frank would be an incredible book that maybe is yet to be written.

#142 marklaspalmas

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:20 PM

1. But the Football league was formed by more or less exclusively NW clubs. They very slowly added the midlands and the first London clubs started joining when the league was 15 years old. Im not sure the badwagon rolled so quickly or easily as you seem to suggest.

2. So, our own incomptence then?

3. Yes.

4. I've read plenty on individual histories and from LLP. I was thinking specifically of publications that cover the development of all codes from 1880 to WW1 which was the key era.

#143 Northern Sol

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:52 PM

The football league was formed by the director of Aston Villa. Six of the 12 clubs were Lancastrian but most of the rest were midlands.

#144 Padge

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:04 AM

The football league was formed by the director of Aston Villa. Six of the 12 clubs were Lancastrian but most of the rest were midlands.

People confuse the football association (1863) with the football league (1888) the former was formed in the main by London clubs and the latter more or less as you say.

The founder clubs of the Football League were: Aston Villa, Blackburn, Bolton, Preston, West Bromwich, Everton, Burnley, Accrington, Wolverhampton, Notts County, Derby County and Stoke.

The FA, an organisation founded by mainly London and other Southern clubs struggled to get the influential Sheffield association of football clubs, who had been operating their own rules since 1857, on board until the late 1870s. It was the formation of an International Board (are you listening RFL, ARL etc.) which took control of the rules of the game that allowed the sport to unify and flourish.

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#145 keighley

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:31 AM

I think, as the piece I quoted states, the Football League agressively expanded into Yorkshire as a definitive policy. They were aided in this by the fast, exciting spectacle that was Soccer when compared to our game which was still basically Rugby Union.

The success of the soccer invasion of our heartlands led to the huge rule changes which produced our modern game in an effort to make the game more open and attractive to counteract the attractions of the fast moving invader. Thus it was in he early 1900 s that we had the play the ball rule, the reduction of the number of players to 13 which tfransformed our game to the fast attack minded spectacle that it is. These changes and the exctitng arrival of the Old Gold touring team to play our best under these rules halted the advance of Soccer and probably saved the game from extinction but we have never, to this day, recovered the dominant position we held in Yokshire sport prior to the soccer expansion movement.

#146 koli

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:41 AM

Bradford switching to soccer after winning the championship in 1906 was the final catalyst to 13 a side and the play the ball.
Poetic justice that as Bradford Park Avenue they enjoyed little success and deeply ironic that they were in the frame to save the Bulls earlier this year.

#147 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:47 PM

I remember going to a film show at Headingley featuring those NU footages that were discovered .Many of you will have also seen them too.Someone in the audience commented on how athletic the players looked,and the presenter's one of them a female historian and I think Tony Collins,they explained that at that time the Rugby /NU players were the sporting elete .They said they had some footage of Association footballers in the area looked like regular tap room drinkers at the side of the rugby players
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#148 keighley

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:18 PM

1. Glee is good. 2 out of 10 :lol:

2. I'd urge you to look at the attempts to get soccer going against a background of failings in the Rugby game at the time post the 1896 split.

I have references to Rugby people actually getting fed up and wanting to try soccer instead.

I'd look at the two Bradford clubs who changed over. I don't think they were enticed, I think they may have changed because they were fed up with Rugby......

Any other views would be welcome. Where's Steve May/Padge etc....


I know Braford pa were not fed up with Rugby. They actually wanted to rejoin the RFU. The volte face to soccer to me suggests inducements or approaches from the Football League.

#149 Matt J

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:42 PM

Now they are in a lower division with more cash crises in the recent past


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Cummins Out.


#150 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:23 PM

Dirty Leeds, Filthy Rich Posted Image

We shall see soon
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#151 THE PIMPERNEL

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 07:23 PM

Were Keighley called the Cougars because there are a lot of older women looking for toyboys in the town?

#152 superten

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:57 AM

so we've narrowed it down to Halifax, who no longer use the name, and Huddersfield.

A good name for Halifax could be Halifax bombers to link in with the famous plane called the halifax bomber
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#153 scrape_goose

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:11 AM

A good name for Halifax could be Halifax bombers to link in with the famous plane called the halifax bomber


I think this was considered but then it was decided it was a bad idea as they didn't want to offend all the German fans.

#154 scrape_goose

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:12 AM

We shall see soon


Only 3 months!! Typical Leeds, find the only skint Arabs to buy us out.




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