95 replies to this topic

[The Parksider]

You trip yourself up by arguing one thing and then trying to shift the point when you are shown to be wrong.

Once again you show yourself unable to debate. Only able to personally attack me.

[Northern Sol]

The last time I debated with you, you decided to sulk calling it "agreeing to disagree". Now suddenly you want to. Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

[The Parksider]

The last time I debated with you, you decided to sulk calling it "agreeing to disagree". Now suddenly you want to. Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Still not got a point of your own on this topic then?

Still after a personal go at me??

[Northern Sol]

There is evidently a lot of strength in junior rugby league outside the SL areas (look at the rep sides) but these players mostly don't go on to play SL. This would seem to be a structural failing of the British game rather than a lack of desire.

David Beckham wanted to play for Manchester United as a boy despite being from East London. However the FA's rules (at the time) allowed him to sign forms for Man Utd and the rest is history.

In rugby league, there are restrictions on how many youth players can be signed from outside the club's service area. This is the problem.

[Northern Sol]

Still not got a point of your own on this topic then?

Indeed I do, I always do.

[The Parksider]

Josh Adu-Dwamaa Nearest SL WIGAN
Joe Batchelor Nearest SL club BRADFORD
Tom Battye NSLC WAKEFIELD
Ben Breheny NSLC Wigan
Alex Calvert NSLC London Brooncos
Jack Connor NSLC Bradford
Jack Cunrow NSLC Wigan
Karl Dixon NSLC Wigan
Matthew Gee Wigan
Ethan Kelly Wigan
Nathan Lawrence Bradford
Nathan Lucock Wigan
Daniel Rowell Wigan
Lewis Sheridan Wigan
Leon Tatlock St Helens
Charlie Tomlinson Wigan
Perry Singleton Wigan
Josh Ward Wigan

Here you go, here's the list with the nearest SL club for each of the lads and who is to say they won't go there.

However i think Warrington have tied up west cumbria as their area.

No doubt Superleague Wigan and Warrington will continue to inspire kids in Cumbria to play Rugby league.....

THAT was the point.

[The Parksider]

There is evidently a lot of strength in junior rugby league outside the SL areas (look at the rep sides) but these players mostly don't go on to play SL. This would seem to be a structural failing of the British game rather than a lack of desire.

In rugby league, there are restrictions on how many youth players can be signed from outside the club's service area. This is the problem.

What do you see as the "structural failing"?

I don't see too great a problem on the number of kids clubs can sign.

Because fundamentally I see a game yhy has been very very short on young talented players such that those who do come through who are good enough to make it, all pretty much get picked up anyway.

Or do you think that the game missed a lot of very talented RL kids who would have made SL players and had to plug those big gaps with all the Aussies they used to sign?

[Northern Sol]

Yes, there need to be RFL rules that allow kids from outside the service areas of SL clubs to go on to play SL.

At the moment, there would seem to be a lot of talent going to waste.

[keighley]

Total drivel, Drighlington isn't even in Leeds nor do they furnish Leeds with any great number of players, if they do name them - go on name them??

Read this and learn something.

In 1974 Widnes returned to the big time appearing in the Regal trophy final, and embarked on a run of success that ended in 1993 beaten at Wembley. In that 20 years the clubs success playing at the top of the game stimulated a growth in junior RL that led to a long list of local born players many of whom grace the Widnes hall of fame many of whom went on to become Great Britain internationals. You may remember such as Widnes St. Maries, Widnes Tigers and Halton Hornets.

Contrast with Keighley who won nowt and early in that period sank to a sustained run of failure in the second division. By the end of that same 20 year period the Keighley area couldn’t even raise a local side strong enough to play in the Championship (please re-read that phrase), so when they “found” some money they had to buy up players surplus to requirement from top division clubs, and they turned to lads from Leeds, Oldham, Hull, Featherstone, Widnes, Halifax, Bradford and Warrington.

Keighley and Widnes are two traditional RL areas with both clubs dating back to 1885, and industrial towns of roughly equal size. The difference in junior development was however massive and the only sensible and logical explanation to that was that kids want to play Rugby League far more and in far greater numbers where the local professional side is successful or at least plays in the top division. Exactly how that process works is complicated but it works like that, the facts prove it.

Outside of the M62 the only places that can challenge the talent the north produces at youth level is south Wales, France and you can be sure the south east could raise a side to compete. Oddly south wales had the Crusaders, France has the Dragons and the south east has the Broncos. Pure co-incidnce is this??

This is why the game cannot afford to pamper to the championship clubs who feed off the scraps SL leaves them, nor can it afford to invest money into clubs who don’t inspire the local kids to play. Nor can it afford NOT to have top level teams outside the M62 at top level because if it did it would be a disaster. For the sake of the development of the game the RFL tried manfully to secure the top clubs plus clubs in London, Wales and France in Superleague and forced on them a remit of local development as an absolute requirement of membership.

Before you accuse me on a personal basis of being an SL “Lover” and “sod the rest” just for once look at the facts upon which the RFL’s policies are based, and accept the observations of a neutral.

Now do some research yourself for once and see what happened to Widnes's production line of talent post 1993 in the ensuing 20 years. Let me know what you find?

Firstly a quote from Google maps

"Drighlington is a village in the civil parish of LEEDS and the city of LEEDS metropolitan district, 5 miles SW of LEEDS."

So drivel to you too, Drighlington is part of the LEEDS metropolis. It sure as hell isn't anywhere near Keighley and Keighley produced players kicked their a****s in a major amateur competiton.

Secondly, check out their website. They are a large and successful amateur club in the mighty Rhinos sphere of influence.


Widnes were a lower level under achieving team before that explosion of local talent came through so you may as well say that a lower level area produced that talent. Sometimes areas really produce exceptional talent at the same time. Remember the Swedish tennis explosion, Bjorn Borg and his contemporaries or the current Serbian group. It just so co incided with Widnes signing a host of stars from other areas, you may remember Jonathan Davies, Emosi Koloto, Devereux, Joe Grima, Martin Offiah, Mackenzie Alan Tait et al.

So yes, Widnes produced more local talent than Keighley. The starting point was from underachievment by both senior clubs, Keighley more than Widnes. At present Keighley are producing CC calibre players from the Keighley area and have always done so. I played with several of them as a youth. Cumbria have and are, as of now, producing large numbers of amateur international RL players and many professional players both at CC level and SL level. What SL club is in Cumbria, pray tell.

Now I submit that London Broncos have had little to do with the expolsion of junior Rugby League in London. Little or or none of it is anywhere near Twickenham. Skolars sponsor more youth development than the Broncos. The youth explosion in London has had a lot to do with the RFL and sport England funded development offiers and the tireless work of hundreds of volunteers at the likes of South London Storm, Greenwich, Medway, Elmbridge and others. Broncos after all, are hardly a shining beacon of success for them to look up to and the crowds they attract would suggest they don't..

Are you sure the Crusaders are responsible for junior development in South Wales ? Wasn't it the Bridgend Blue Bulls amateur team that preceded them that started amateur RL development in South Walesd as well as RFL funded development officers. Come to mention it, any development Crusaders did was probably started when they were a CC1 and CC club. After all they were only a SL club in South Wales for one or maybe two seasons.

France. Well they have only had a SL club for a few years and have been producing juniors for over 70 years and at one point produced them so well they beat Australia in a test series in Australia. I go back also to my original point also that the current successful under 19 French team are probably not all from Perpignan by any means.

Lastly, I didn't know the M62 went through Cumbria. My mistake.

[The Parksider]

Firstly a quote from Google maps

"Drighlington is a village in the civil parish of LEEDS and the city of LEEDS metropolitan district, 5 miles SW of LEEDS."

So drivel to you too, Drighlington is part of the LEEDS metropolis. It sure as hell isn't anywhere near Keighley and Keighley produced players kicked their a****s in a major amateur competiton.

Secondly, check out their website. They are a large and successful amateur club in the mighty Rhinos sphere of influence.


Widnes were a lower level under achieving team before that explosion of local talent came through so you may as well say that a lower level area produced that talent. Sometimes areas really produce exceptional talent at the same time. Remember the Swedish tennis explosion, Bjorn Borg and his contemporaries or the current Serbian group. It just so co incided with Widnes signing a host of stars from other areas, you may remember Jonathan Davies, Emosi Koloto, Devereux, Joe Grima, Martin Offiah, Mackenzie Alan Tait et al.

So yes, Widnes produced more local talent than Keighley. The starting point was from underachievment by both senior clubs, Keighley more than Widnes. At present Keighley are producing CC calibre players from the Keighley area and have always done so. I played with several of them as a youth. Cumbria have and are, as of now, producing large numbers of amateur international RL players and many professional players both at CC level and SL level. What SL club is in Cumbria, pray tell.

Now I submit that London Broncos have had little to do with the expolsion of junior Rugby League in London. Little or or none of it is anywhere near Twickenham. Skolars sponsor more youth development than the Broncos. The youth explosion in London has had a lot to do with the RFL and sport England funded development offiers and the tireless work of hundreds of volunteers at the likes of South London Storm, Greenwich, Medway, Elmbridge and others. Broncos after all, are hardly a shining beacon of success for them to look up to and the crowds they attract would suggest they don't..

Are you sure the Crusaders are responsible for junior development in South Wales ? Wasn't it the Bridgend Blue Bulls amateur team that preceded them that started amateur RL development in South Walesd as well as RFL funded development officers. Come to mention it, any development Crusaders did was probably started when they were a CC1 and CC club. After all they were only a SL club in South Wales for one or maybe two seasons.

France. Well they have only had a SL club for a few years and have been producing juniors for over 70 years and at one point produced them so well they beat Australia in a test series in Australia. I go back also to my original point also that the current successful under 19 French team are probably not all from Perpignan by any means.

Lastly, I didn't know the M62 went through Cumbria. My mistake.

All very well and all very very far from the point.

Quality amateur clubs and Superleague professional clubs conspire together to inspire kids to play the game.

Too much importance is given to Championship clubs, often to the ridiculous point of you saying the death of these clubs will be the death of Rugby League, and valuable money has to be spent on them.

I found that absurd.......

As it is most won't die. They will submit to reality and become SL "A" teams.

That was the point......

Care to engage in it.............

Edited by The Parksider, 25 November 2012 - 12:57 PM.

[The Parksider]

Yes, there need to be RFL rules that allow kids from outside the service areas of SL clubs to go on to play SL.

At the moment, there would seem to be a lot of talent going to waste.

How does the anomaly you speak of affect all those Cumbria kids in the U18 side Solly?

[keighley]

Here you go, here's the list with the nearest SL club for each of the lads and who is to say they won't go there.

However i think Warrington have tied up west cumbria as their area.

No doubt Superleague Wigan and Warrington will continue to inspire kids in Cumbria to play Rugby league.....

THAT was the point.

No doubt they will sign for SL clubs but the area from which they hail and where they learned their rugby are CC team areas and putting the nearest SL team by their names will not change that, so it seems to me that it would benefit the RFL to put some money into the junior games on these areas.No, your point was that verfy few if any decent playhers emanate from non SL towns. You are plainly wrong.

[keighley]

What do you mean by "significant juniors" why don't you or Terry make a clear point?

Whilst your both falling over yourself to prove me wrong rather than make any clear or coherent point yourselves I checked with Kirkholt over the situation in Rochdale.

He says..........

"(In Rochdale) there has been a big loss of clubs over 30 years. What I would say has improved in Rochdale is junior RL. In the 80s, one or two die-hards kept plugging away with junior & youth teams but it was very haphazard. Mayfield now lead the way with the well organised Mustangs and are providing a number of players into Super League clubs".

I did my research and although I could not find any Rochdale born senior SL players, the best kids in Rochdale have started to be picked up especially by Saints.

That pretty much makes the Hornets isolated.

Your the one so keen to make the argument that the small championship clubs are important to the game in dreamworld, I'm the one doing the actual research in the real world and the structure of the modern game is well organised and resourced junior clubs across wide regions feeding the best players into Superleague clubs.

This proces has left so many championship clubs redundant in the scheme of things that ten of them have decided to formally become part of that process.

That leaves Keighley and Featherstone swimming against the tide, a very fair analysis don't you think?

Equally and back to the OP two french SL clubs will hopefully inspire whole swathes of southern France into taking RK up and taking it more seriously......

You have got yourself so tied up in knots that you are now defeating your own original argument.

The fact that Rochdale is now producing a fair amount of juniors is the point you strenuosly argued against, namely that such areas did nor produce any decent juniors. That they are signing for St Helens is irrelevant to the point about the geographical location of their taking up the game being in Rochdale, a very minor CC1 area for many years.

The point of this thread was NOT about the CC1 and CC clubs being important ( That;'s another subject) but about the fact that non SL areas produced no or minimal numbers of juniors. Note, I am not saying that SL towns and cities do not produce juniors, they clearly do, I am saying that so do areas other than SL twons.

[keighley]

All very well and all very very far from the point.

Quality amateur clubs and Superleague professional clubs conspire together to inspire kids to play the game.

Too much importance is given to Championship clubs, often to the ridiculous point of you saying the death of these clubs will be the death of Rugby League, and valuable money has to be spent on them.

I found that absurd.......

As it is most won't die. They will submit to reality and become SL "A" teams.

That was the point......

Care to engage in it.............

That was NOT the point at all. You must work for the RFL in the goalpost moving department. The point WAS that non SL area produced no or very few players from the jujnior games in their areas going all the way back to your claim that the French U19 success was soley because of the Catalansd Dragons.

I have never in my life ever said that top junior players only come from SL areas.

What a stupid thing to try to pin on me.

I did the research earlier this year that you rudely choose to ignore and outlined the fact that MOST professional players come from areas that have Superleague clubs in that area.

I could not find a current SL player in the starting 17 of an SL club who came from Batley or Keighley, I found one from York and one from Doncaster.

That's all on record but you choose to ignore everything that does not suit you.

What is YOUR POINT????

Or don't you have one? Are you now playing the Northern Sol of trying to trip me up??

Go back to post#31 and let me have your answer....

Post # 30 by you and I quote

"By far and away young pro players come from area that are centred on SL clubs" and " Featherstone area is centred on two SL clubs" ( one of whom has been designated for the chop by most SL lovers). So what is centred on Feathersone. Are you saying that the Feathersone NCL team is centred on Wakefield?

So I am not pinning anything on you. That's your point of argument written by you and pushed relentlessly on these forums.

[Northern Sol]

How does the anomaly you speak of affect all those Cumbria kids in the U18 side Solly?

They have the talent or they would not be in the under-18 side. You would expect at least some of them to "make it" in SL. I think it is a case of merely watching what happens to them. How many will make the grade and how many will give up the game despite having the talent.

[The Parksider]

Your point was that very few if any decent players emanate from non SL towns. You are plainly wrong.

For the umpteenth time you silly man the point was clearly made and backed by my research into the origins of the players who made it into the top 17's of the Superleague clubs as established professionals. I put it up on here but clearly you wish to ignore it.

There was 22 from Leeds, 20 from Wigan, 18 from Saints, 20 from Hull etc

None from Batley, none from Keighley, None from Rochdale, one from York, One from Donny etc.

Can't you see how posting the origins of an under 18's England side NONE OF WHOM HAVE GOT ANYWHERE NEAR BEING FULL TIME PROFESSIONALS IN THE SL TOP 17'S......

DOESN'T DISPROVE MY POINT ONE LITTLE BIT DOES IT

Edited by The Parksider, 25 November 2012 - 05:02 PM.

[The Parksider]

They have the talent or they would not be in the under-18 side. You would expect at least some of them to "make it" in SL. I think it is a case of merely watching what happens to them. How many will make the grade and how many will give up the game despite having the talent.

Yes I see. However when discussing the players who may slip the net the examples always come back to Peacock and Hardaker. I wonder if professional quality talent being missed is the exception rather than the rule?

As you say it would be good to follow the pathways of players.

I once had a look at the Colts rep teams from the 1980's. There were many names in there who didn't make pro..

1981 GB Colts....

Whelan, Jones, Marchant, Wardle, Lazenby, Conway, Johnson, sykes, O'Toole, crookes, Platt, Proctor, Fleming, Howard, Beall, England........

Six made it to being first division regulars, so ten dropped from being that years elite to the championship or oblivion....

Not sure what that says though!!!

[barnyia]

The 18's team that lost on Thursday,
http://www.ffr13.fr/...rticle/128/4213

[keighley]

For the umpteenth time you silly man the point was clearly made and backed by my research into the origins of the players who made it into the top 17's of the Superleague clubs as established professionals. I put it up on here but clearly you wish to ignore it.

There was 22 from Leeds, 20 from Wigan, 18 from Saints, 20 from Hull etc

None from Batley, none from Keighley, None from Rochdale, one from York, One from Donny etc.

Can't you see how posting the origins of an under 18's England side NONE OF WHOM HAVE GOT ANYWHERE NEAR BEING FULL TIME PROFESSIONALS IN THE SL TOP 17'S......

DOESN'T DISPROVE MY POINT ONE LITTLE BIT DOES IT

I don t appreciate being called a silly man. I could say that you are a pompous opinionated buffoon with delusions of grandeur who thinks he shouldn t be challenged on his opinions but I would never say that as I dont believe in throwing insults around.

14 x 17 = 238 players and you have accounted for 82 of them. Are there no players from Oldham, Cumbria, Dewsbury, Hunslet, Featherstone, Haifax, Leigh and East London ( 40 miles from Twickenham ) and Wales amongst the 156 remaining players not accounted for? I bet there are. We know for instance that the capain of the SL Champions and England and the coach of Wales are from Oldham junior Rugby League. We know the current Leeds fullback and England player is from Featherstone junior RL. We know that an England prop at St Helens is from Greenwich, nowhere near Twickenham. How many more did you miss ?

The under 18s are just that, 17 years old,so they are clearly not at SL clubs yet. Check back in a couple of years and I will wager that 3/4 of them will be at SL clubs and some of the rest at CC clubs.I think those players will mostly definitely disprove your point.

Finally, check out post #58 kindly researched by Monsieur Barnyia. 4 out of 18 players in the French under 18 s that narrowly lost to the AIS were from Catalans/St Esteve and the rest were from the LER and others.Would you care to rethink your original post that the French are producing some top class juniors soley because of the existence of Catalans SL side. ?

[The Parksider]

I don't appreciate being called a silly man.

14 x 17 = 238 players and you have accounted for 82 of them. Are there no players from Oldham, Cumbria, Dewsbury, Hunslet, Featherstone, Haifax, Leigh........

Take out Les Catalans. 13x17 is 221 senior first XV11 players

13 Superleague clubs produce 115 of those players locally.

16 Championship club areas have junior sides in their areas who have produced an extra 31 players for Superleague.

4 Welsh lads one from the Midlands.

And that's it for homegrown professionals. Our clubs are short of 70 professional quality players and I'll let you go figure how they make the 70 shortfall up.

The game lacks the resources in terms of money, fans and YES players and the Championship areas your always championing for Superleague hardly produce any pro's if any at all. They average two per area.

This is why it's a silly argument to say a club can simply sign players from other parts of the country. It can't work there aren't enough.

This is why the biggest Super League clubs have to have continuity and be made to develop talent and have to have as wide an area as possible to develop it from hence championship clubs are giving up autonomy and joining in the development process with SL partners.

This is why the game desperately needs development in London and Wales for the players

This is why the expectation of new CC1 clubs will be to attract young players to the game in their areas with a pathway to SL.

It's silly to post the make up of a BARLA under 18 rep side in a vain attempt to discredit what I am saying.

Please engage in the realities......