95 replies to this topic

[The Daddy_merged]

I don t appreciate being called a silly man. I could say that you are a pompous opinionated buffoon with delusions of grandeur who thinks he shouldn t be challenged on his opinions but I would never say that as I dont believe in throwing insults around.

14 x 17 = 238 players and you have accounted for 82 of them. Are there no players from Oldham, Cumbria, Dewsbury, Hunslet, Featherstone, Haifax, Leigh and East London ( 40 miles from Twickenham ) and Wales amongst the 156 remaining players not accounted for? I bet there are. We know for instance that the capain of the SL Champions and England and the coach of Wales are from Oldham junior Rugby League. We know the current Leeds fullback and England player is from Featherstone junior RL. We know that an England prop at St Helens is from Greenwich, nowhere near Twickenham. How many more did you miss ?

The under 18s are just that, 17 years old,so they are clearly not at SL clubs yet. Check back in a couple of years and I will wager that 3/4 of them will be at SL clubs and some of the rest at CC clubs.I think those players will mostly definitely disprove your point.

Finally, check out post #58 kindly researched by Monsieur Barnyia. 4 out of 18 players in the French under 18 s that narrowly lost to the AIS were from Catalans/St Esteve and the rest were from the LER and others.Would you care to rethink your original post that the French are producing some top class juniors soley because of the existence of Catalans SL side. ?

'Monsieur Barnyia'.......lmfao!!!

[timtum]

Monsieur Barnyia was mentioned in the local paper l'independent here yesterday.

Fortunately the reporter managed to mangle his name so completely his anonymity remains intact.

[barnyia]

Monsieur Barnyia was mentioned in the local paper l'independent here yesterday.

Fortunately the reporter managed to mangle his name so completely his anonymity remains intact.

Missed yesterdays paper tim was working in Beziers where rugby league is unheard of!

Somebody at the independent is on a wind up and keep putting us as a rugby union team!

[keighley]

Take out Les Catalans. 13x17 is 221 senior first XV11 players

13 Superleague clubs produce 115 of those players locally.

16 Championship club areas have junior sides in their areas who have produced an extra 31 players for Superleague.

4 Welsh lads one from the Midlands.

And that's it for homegrown professionals. Our clubs are short of 70 professional quality players and I'll let you go figure how they make the 70 shortfall up.

The game lacks the resources in terms of money, fans and YES players and the Championship areas your always championing for Superleague hardly produce any pro's if any at all. They average two per area.

This is why it's a silly argument to say a club can simply sign players from other parts of the country. It can't work there aren't enough.

This is why the biggest Super League clubs have to have continuity and be made to develop talent and have to have as wide an area as possible to develop it from hence championship clubs are giving up autonomy and joining in the development process with SL partners.

This is why the game desperately needs development in London and Wales for the players

This is why the expectation of new CC1 clubs will be to attract young players to the game in their areas with a pathway to SL.

It's silly to post the make up of a BARLA under 18 rep side in a vain attempt to discredit what I am saying.

Please engage in the realities......

The point was about the numbers of players produced from non SL areas not soley championship clubs areas so 31 + 4 from Wales plus 1 from the midlands + 36, which is roughly a third as many as produced in the SL areas, so hardly an insignificant number is it. Remember you are claiming insignificant numbers from other than SL areas?

SL clubs are going into partnerships to save money on player development, nothing more, nothing less. They are in fact retarding development by jettisoning all but the players farmed out to
Championship clubs. It's about money or the saving of it. It's about developing players by the back door route by farming them out to CC clubs so that it costs them less.

It sounds like the expansion of CC1 has been designed to be a farm system for SL clubs the way you couch it. Everything about expanding the game to the whole country is just so a production line of players for the ring fenced Northern SL clubs can be facilitated. Well that's really progress, isn't it. No chance of any of these expansion clubs ever being considered as possible SL clubs then. Just keep them poor and lowly to produce players for the elite. Some expansion strategy that is.

The non SL area makeup of the Barla u 18s and the non Catalans makeup of the French U 18s is very relevant to this discussion of the geographical spread of SL players. All players start off at amateur junior clubs and the best are picked for their national teams and the best of them end up as SL players. Judging from the Barla team and the French juniors, I would say that either your research was an anomaly and the sample you used to get your results is not representative of year on year origins of SL player production or the amateur clubs in the non SL areas have improved and are now producing significantly more high level players than before.

[timtum]

Missed yesterdays paper tim was working in Beziers where rugby league is unheard of!

Somebody at the independent is on a wind up and keep putting us as a rugby union team!

[timtum]

Congratulations on the win mate - one rl legend v another. Audois sends his congrats Good on yer!

[The Parksider]

1. SL clubs are going into partnerships to save money on player development, nothing more, nothing less. They are in fact retarding development.....

2. It sounds like the expansion of CC1 has been designed to be a farm system for SL clubs the way you couch it.

3. Everything about expanding the game to the whole country is just so a production line of players for the ring fenced Northern SL clubs can be facilitated. Well that's really progress, isn't it.

4. No chance of any of these expansion clubs ever being considered as possible SL clubs then. Just keep them poor and lowly

5. To produce players for the elite. Some expansion strategy that is.

1. Struggling Championship clubs in poor stadia retard development. Nobody wants to go to watch them, the local kids don't want to play for them. Get real instead of bending everything towards your hate for SL.

2. Yes it is, it also doubles as a system for expanding the game - see point 5.

3. If as many of the resources we have can be directed into selected SL clubs then it will be progress, I'd think the game will do a million more times better with all the fans watching 14 SL clubs.

As I say Superleague attracts players and fans to the game. It's the vehicle for the success of the game.

4. Every chance of them becoming SL clubs if they get someone rich interested. Heavy investment is the only route to Superleague.

There's no "grassroots bottom up development" that's in your dreams and fantasies.

5. See 2.

[keighley]

1. Struggling Championship clubs in poor stadia retard development. Nobody wants to go to watch them, the local kids don't want to play for them. Get real instead of bending everything towards your hate for SL.

2. Yes it is, it also doubles as a system for expanding the game - see point 5.

3. If as many of the resources we have can be directed into selected SL clubs then it will be progress, I'd think the game will do a million more times better with all the fans watching 14 SL clubs.

As I say Superleague attracts players and fans to the game. It's the vehicle for the success of the game.

4. Every chance of them becoming SL clubs if they get someone rich interested. Heavy investment is the only route to Superleague.

There's no "grassroots bottom up development" that's in your dreams and fantasies.

5. See 2.

Point 3 is about as depressing a comment as Ive ever read. Apart from the fact that you have now upped the top echelon from the favoured 12 to the previously denigrated 14, that is about as regressive, counter productive a policy as possible. Are you really advocating that all new clubs entering the RFL should produce players only to farm them off to SL clubs. All the welsh players, all the midlands players, all the cumbrian players, all the Hemel and Oxford and Gloucester players. Well, bully for SL and hooray for the North but you will not grow teams in essential expansion areas by sending all their talent to Wigan or Leeds. Any potential fans will soon walk away when their successful teams are constantly decimated. Expansion will be dead.

If we do not want to remain a marginalised Northern game then that is the policy to follow but I don t think a successful future is to be found by that route.

We have has this discussion before and I remain convinced that grass roots start ups are best and if successful at the lower levels then they can be transformed into top down organisations by recruiting investment.

[The Parksider]

Point 3 is about as depressing a comment as Ive ever read. Apart from the fact that you have now upped the top echelon from the favoured 12 to the previously denigrated 14, that is about as regressive, counter productive a policy as possible. Are you really advocating that all new clubs entering the RFL should produce players only to farm them off to SL clubs. All the welsh players, all the midlands players, all the cumbrian players, all the Hemel and Oxford and Gloucester players. Well, bully for SL and hooray for the North but you will not grow teams in essential expansion areas by sending all their talent to Wigan or Leeds. Any potential fans will soon walk away when their successful teams are constantly decimated. Expansion will be dead.

If we do not want to remain a marginalised Northern game then that is the policy to follow but I don t think a successful future is to be found by that route.

We have has this discussion before and I remain convinced that grass roots start ups are best and if successful at the lower levels then they can be transformed into top down organisations by recruiting investment.

Please take a close look at Rugby Unions Guinness Premiership.

There's 12 "Elite Clubs" who have all the money and fans.

They take all the best talent off the rest of the clubs in the country.

That game has £10's of MILLIONS more to spend than ours

That game has a deep and wide infrastructure around the country

Yet if bottom club Sale go down it will be largely an M4 league.

Your ambitions for Rugby League far far outweigh what even Union can manage in reality.

Don't do me down, think about it and give me a considered reply......

[keighley]

Please take a close look at Rugby Unions Guinness Premiership.

There's 12 "Elite Clubs" who have all the money and fans.

They take all the best talent off the rest of the clubs in the country.

That game has £10's of MILLIONS more to spend than ours

That game has a deep and wide infrastructure around the country

Yet if bottom club Sale go down it will be largely an M4 league.

Your ambitions for Rugby League far far outweigh what even Union can manage in reality.

Don't do me down, think about it and give me a considered reply......

Union is not making it's tier two clubs exist as feeder clubs to the Arriva premiership as you are contemplating for CC RL in your post. Rugby Union has not ring fenced its premier competiton. Rugby Union has p and r and has Leeds , Newcastle, Doncaster, Rotherham and Nottingham amongst others in it's championship division.

Rugby Union would love to have some of those teams in it's top division. Leeds for instance, a contrived merger such as you dream of for SL, would be welcomed and lauded if it could achieve Arriva premiership status. If the money lasts they will be back and, if they make a go of it, RL should worry. Newcastle will be back next season. I would hazard a guess that they would love Doncaster or Rotherham to be there also. They do not make all these potential top level teams be conveyor belts of juniors for the Saracens and Harlequins of their world.

Why do you think they tried to stop the promotion of London Welsh? In my opinion it is because they did not want to lose an outpost club in Newcastle who were relegated. They have enough home counties teams. Are Newcastle now playing on loan players from some Arriva club and expected to become their A team.? Ccertainly not?

RU have had some discussions to ring fencing their top Division a la SL. If they do, I would hazard a guess that they will increase the size and scope of the Arriva Championships by awarding licences to clubs in the North. I would be extremely surprised if they told the Northern clubs to stay at their present level, sign feeder club agreemments, and just keep on providing players for the elite, but that is what you are proposing RL does with any clubs we manage to establish in areas of the country outside our heartlands.The top tier RU clubs have to find/develop their own talent.

The top tier RL clubs should have to do the same, as they have been doing up until now. Our expansion clubs and I include Gateshead, Sheffield, the two Welsh clubs and even Doncaster in that group, as well as the newbies should be encouraged to grow and prosper and we will see if any can progress to a decent Cc level and then find financing to take the giant leap to SL status.

The game, as also RU, needs to grow to cover the whole country with as many SL clubs as possible. We should not be expanding merely for the new clubs to be brood mares to SL ambitions.I do not think any expansion teams, or any Northern CC teams will last very long following that recipe.

The RU are definitely not following that path. If we stagnate, however successful SL currently is ( and it's only a partial success), then eventually we will be overwhelmed by our very insularity.

[Evil Homer]

Just to get an idea of their strength, the AIS team beat Wales 52-12. http://www.rlef.eu.c...ort?RLE00000463

[keighley]

Just to get an idea of their strength, the AIS team beat Wales 52-12. http://www.rlef.eu.c...ort?RLE00000463

As they should. It's David v Goliath. It just goes to show the improvment in the French though that they could run them so close at u 18s and beat then at u 19s. It bodes well for the future for the French national team if we can keep the players in RL.

[oiseau]

As they should. It's David v Goliath. It just goes to show the improvment in the French though that they could run them so close at u 18s and beat then at u 19s. It bodes well for the future for the French national team if we can keep the players in RL.

having a second french SL team will dramatically improve the odds on that happening

[The Parksider]

RU have had some discussions to ring fencing their top Division a la SL. If they do, I would hazard a guess that they will increase the size and scope of the Arriva Championships by awarding licences to clubs in the North.

Oh for goodness sake what a daft idea that they will ring fence their top division only to bring clubs in and then Leeds who have no money.

I can't debate with your "guesswork".

Fact - RU is far richer than RL and yet runs a top division smaller than RL.

[keighley]

Oh for goodness sake what a daft idea that they will ring fence their top division only to bring clubs in and then Leeds who have no money.

I can't debate with your "guesswork".

Fact - RU is far richer than RL and yet runs a top division smaller than RL.

RL had better hope it stays that way. They let Leeds in twice under p and r. There is nothing to say that they would not award them a franchise/licence under any future system. Since they have the money, they can afford to expand.

Not all organisations are as regressive and parochial as SL. The emperor has no clothes. Only two or three profitable stand alone clubs. Not enough cash to sustain proper player development. Proposals to reduce its membership. Refusal to set and enforce penalties for financial failure whilst demanding financial guarantees for prospective applicants. A flawed licence granting process resulting in embarassingly weak members who go belly up. SL has been a partial success but is in serious danger of hitting a financial implosion point. They will probably dump Salford in their zeal for a bigger share of the pie for the big boys and abandon a brand new stadium in the Norths largest conurbation to a RU club.

So I wrote a whole post at your request on how Union did not weaken it s club structure by making the lower tiers feeder clubs and that paragraph re ring fencing was all that caught your eye. I guess you saw an opportunity to goalpost move again seeing as t your original point was looking pretty weak.

[The Parksider]

your original point was looking pretty weak.

In your dreams.

You started dreaming up RU policy and then you dreamed up a debate on RU having "feeder clubs".

My point was NOT about feeder clubs

Lets debate reality. Let's get back to the point I made.

In reality a much much richer version of Rugby has a smaller elite of the same old clubs.

What price a two tier SL of 10 clubs each? What price conferences? What price a 16 club SL.

Pure fantasy dreamland.

Edited by The Parksider, 30 November 2012 - 10:07 AM.

[keighley]

In your dreams.

You started dreaming up RU policy and then you dreamed up a debate on RU having "feeder clubs".

My point was NOT about feeder clubs





Lets debate reality. Let's get back to the point I made.

In reality a much much richer version of Rugby has a smaller elite of the same old clubs.

What price a two tier SL of 10 clubs each? What price conferences? What price a 16 club SL.

Pure fantasy dreamland.

Your point was about feeder clubs. You wanted all the players produced by our new expansion clubs to chanelled into the existing 14 SL clubs. What is that if not a proposal for the creation of yet more feeder clubs.

As I said, RL had better hope they stay smaller. My thoughts on RU exspansion are no more fanatasy than your dreams of a 12 or 14 club fully professional and sustainable SL. At least the RU have the money to fulfill their fantasy. SL dosn't.

[The Parksider]

Your point was about feeder clubs.

I know what my point was for gawds sake.

The RU Elite league is immensly more richer than ours yet can manage no more than 12 clubs and little geographic expansion

People's (especially yours) ambitions for RL far exceed it's ability to provide the resources for those ambitions.

Simple

[keighley]

I know what my point was for gawds sake.

The RU Elite league is immensly more richer than ours yet can manage no more than 12 clubs and little geographic expansion

People's (especially yours) ambitions for RL far exceed it's ability to provide the resources for those ambitions.

Simple

I am sure that when we had 30 professional clubs all in the North, a four team world cup, a dying amateur base, no college, armed forces RL, no summer conferences all over the UK, no female game, no Sky deal and all teams playing in decrepit ancient stadia in the 1960's, people similalry derided any proposals to expand our game and called them incapable of being achieved, but they would have been wrong, wouldn't they?

You look at things or ideas for improvement or expansion and say " Not possible" or "fantasy". This may be true at the time of such proposals. However, all the things listed in my first paragraph changed and for the better. Ideas and ambitions should not be dismissed out of hand because they cannot be implemented today. Things and circumstances change, movers and shakers emerge and things change to the point where ideas and ambitions can be realised.

Time will tell which strategy or which ideas will be proved correct.

[The Daddy_merged]

I am sure that when we had 30 professional clubs all in the North, a four team world cup, a dying amateur base, no college, armed forces RL, no summer conferences all over the UK, no female game, no Sky deal and all teams playing in decrepit ancient stadia in the 1960's, people similalry derided any proposals to expand our game and called them incapable of being achieved, but they would have been wrong, wouldn't they?

You look at things or ideas for improvement or expansion and say " Not possible" or "fantasy". This may be true at the time of such proposals. However, all the things listed in my first paragraph changed and for the better. Ideas and ambitions should not be dismissed out of hand because they cannot be implemented today. Things and circumstances change, movers and shakers emerge and things change to the point where ideas and ambitions can be realised.

Time will tell which strategy or which ideas will be proved correct.

Totally agree with all u said there!!!