78 replies to this topic

[Old Frightful]

Joyce Thacker, head of Rotherham's snatch squad

My word, looks to be a place to avoid then.

[Just Browny]

My word, looks to be a place to avoid then.

Don't knock it, you can make good money.

I'd have thought the biggest concern about UKIP voters fostering children would be that they wouldn't have enough time to look after kids, what with the amount of time UKIP fanatics seem to spend commenting 'OUT NOW LET'S END THIS FARCE' on internet forums and in below-the-line comment sections.

[JohnM]

My word, looks to be a place to avoid then.

Gosh! I didn't mean for it to be taken that way............

[WearyRhino]

It was you who accused the people of Rotherham of voting for donkeys. So why not the people of Richmond? After all William only just scraped in 1989, but despite the fact that it was clear Thatcher was no longer fit to govern, enough Tories voters still elected their donkey. It's clear you regard anyone who votes Labour as not being worthy of having the vote and who should therefore be immediately disenfranchised. I wonder why it is that the areas in the former Metropolitan County of South Yorkshire vote Labour in such large numbers? Come to think of it I wonder why it is that the heartlands of the game we both love is predominantly represented at both national and local levels by the Labour party? Could it be that the same people who tried to prevent weavers and colliers from playng sport, vinctimising and ostracising them if they did are the same people who victimised and exploited them in their workplace? Rotherham council's action is stupid. But much of what the current government is doing such as dismanltling the NHS could also be described as stupid. Perhaps there's also a case for the electors of Richmond to be disenfranchised too..

+1

[Northern Sol]

Could it be that the same people who tried to prevent weavers and colliers from playng sport, vinctimising and ostracising them if they did are the same people who victimised and exploited them in their workplace?

This is pushing it. The 19th century was a long time ago, the Tories of 2012 are not those of the Victorian era. A lot of the Tory voting middle class today had great-grandparents who were weavers and collliers. I'm not exactly a Tory but I'm not a socialist either. None of my family would have had the vote until the universal franchise. I don't think this obligates me to vote Labour.

Don't forget that rugby league would have got nowhere without the backing of mill owners. It is not and never has been a solely working class game.

[Trojan]

This is pushing it. The 19th century was a long time ago, the Tories of 2012 are not those of the Victorian era.

Don't kid yourself

[Northern Sol]

Don't kid yourself

I don't. The class system changed a great deal in the 60s and 70s. Most people these days have close relatives that "belong" to a different social class to them. Even in Rotherham, there are working class Tories.

You are right that Labour dominates these areas at a national level but at a local level, the Liberals often do very well (or did) in these kinds of metropolises. One reason being the kind of rigid politicised thinking that Labour councils were / are famous for and this would seem to be the case here.

[fieldofclothofgold]

If Respect wins these two by elections,and holds on to them after the next general election,I wonder if they would be asked or if the would even consider working with Labour in a kind of coalition.Somehow I dont think so

[WearyRhino]

I don't. The class system changed a great deal in the 60s and 70s.

No it didn't and such nonsense doesn't gain in veracity by repetition. It might be the wish of neo-liberals to perpetuate the idea that an increase in disposable income and consequent ability to partake in consumerism madness changes a persons class, but it is simply untrue.

[Trojan]

I don't. The class system changed a great deal in the 60s and 70s. Most people these days have close relatives that "belong" to a different social class to them. Even in Rotherham, there are working class Tories.

You are right that Labour dominates these areas at a national level but at a local level, the Liberals often do very well (or did) in these kinds of metropolises. One reason being the kind of rigid politicised thinking that Labour councils were / are famous for and this would seem to be the case here.

Since the universal franchise the Tories have had to trim. But they do as little as possible to gain election. In other words Labour keeps them honest. Remarks like John's "donkey" gives the game away of what they truly think. You only have to get Tories talking to get them to reveal what they'd really like to do to the working people of this country. That expression was a favourite one of my right wing Tory supporting mother in law. Under the skin they are exactly like the Tories of the 19th century. As for those who supported the Northern Union, I think if you look back most of the tradesmen and millowners were non-comformist Liberals, and as far as the Tories who ran the RFU, the MCC and everything else, indistinguishable from the weavers and miners playing the game.
In the sixties I played Rugby Union for a "first class club" - not for the first team miind you I wasn't good enough. But there were plenty of my mates who were, and when the sons of the millowners etc (who by now had become Tories) came home from Uni at Christmas and Easter, they were quickly dropped form the first team to make space for the club's benefactors. As a regular 3rd teamer, I of course found myself in the 4th team, as we all moved down a level to make room for them. It was good in a way - it meant for brief periods the 4th's couild play XV a side instead of "any number can play" But I know the displaced 1st teamers resented it. The class system in the UK is alive and well. Dave (Lord Snooty) and his pals is perpetuating it to the best of his ability. I believe the appointment of Lynton Crosby as election co-ordinator throws out the last pretences of "detoxification" Wait for things to turn really nasty in the next 2 1/2 years.

Edited by Trojan, 25 November 2012 - 02:46 PM.

[Northern Sol]

No it didn't and such nonsense doesn't gain in veracity by repetition. It might be the wish of neo-liberals to perpetuate the idea that an increase in disposable income and consequent ability to partake in consumerism madness changes a persons class, but it is simply untrue.

Only the far-left use the term neo-liberal.

What is class if it is not material circumstances and opportunities?

[Northern Sol]

Since the universal franchise the Tories have had to trim. But they do as little as possible to gain election. In other words Labour keeps them honest.

This is something true of politicians in general. Opposition keeps them relatively honest.

Remarks like John's "donkey" gives the game away of what they truly think. You only have to get Tories talking to get them to reveal what they'd really like to do to the working people of this country. That expression was a favourite one of my right wing Tory supporting mother in law. Under the skin they are exactly like the Tories of the 19th century. As for those who supported the Northern Union, I think if you look back most of the tradesmen and millowners were non-comformist Liberals, and as far as the Tories who ran the RFU, the MCC and everything else, indistinguishable from the weavers and miners playing the game.
In the sixties I played Rugby Union for a "first class club" - not for the first team miind you I wasn't good enough. But there were plenty of my mates who were, and when the sons of the millowners etc (who by now had become Tories) came home from Uni at Christmas and Easter, they were quickly dropped form the first team to make space for the club's benefactors. As a regular 3rd teamer, I of course found myself in the 4th team, as we all moved down a level to make room for them. It was good in a way - it meant for brief periods the 4th's couild play XV a side instead of "any number can play" But I know the displaced 1st teamers resented it. The class system in the UK is alive and well. Dave (Lord Snooty) and his pals is perpetuating it to the best of his ability. I believe the appointment of Lynton Crosby as election co-ordinator throws out the last pretences of "detoxification" Wait for things to turn really nasty in the next 2 1/2 years.

That was 50 years ago.

[WearyRhino]

Only the far-left use the term neo-liberal.

What is class if it is not material circumstances and opportunities?

And you call yourself an economist! I think they should take that A level off you.

[Northern Sol]

Class is not part of economics, it is part of sociology.

But I note that you ducked the question. What is class if it is not economic circumstances and opportunities?

[Trojan]

This is something true of politicians in general. Opposition keeps them relatively honest.



That was 50 years ago.

It's exactly the same today.
I speak to many Tories on a daily basis. They are perfectly ordinary people on most subjects, but when you get them on to politics they turn into racist bigots. They want hanging back, they think most of the unemployed are wasters and robbers, they want us out of the EU. Most of them despised Cameron, as a wet, whether they stiil will once Lynton Crosby gets to work, we shall see. It used to be their mantra "they're on benefit but can afford cars," now it's they can afford Sky. And they make no secret of their views. If they could go back to the "rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate" they would. It's what they believe. I'm sure Cameron, Osbourne, Gove and the rest of them (in private) are just the same as their supporters in the country.
The whole point of Labour is that it is a party founded to try and improve the lot of the working man - that is the reason it exists. IMO "New Labour" (Tory Lite) was an aberration, basically created by Thatcher and as a reaction to the Militant Tendency. It would seem that Labour is now reverting back to its social democrat roots.
The Tories are there to protect vested interests of the better off - that's why they've done away with the 50p tax rate. That's why they've introduced the 20% Vat rate. That's why they've allowed the NHS to be run for the profit of private health companies. They are ultimately bad for our country, all social progress in the 20th century came from the LIberals or Labour. OK the Tories went along with some of it, but give them the opportunity to reduce workers rights and benefits and they're straight in there. It's what they're there for. It's why large companies pour large sums of money into the Tory party's coffers. They can outspend they're opponents probably by 100% is they have to. They can hire the best. And they to that's how they stay ahead of the game. Anyone who thinks differently is not living in the real world. The Tories have never really changed and never will. If an unprecedented 13 years in opposition can't get them to change their ways nothing will. It's the frog and the scorpion.

[Northern Sol]

I can't see how you can argue that economic growth didn't lead to "social progress".

[JohnM]

Since the universal franchise the Tories have had to trim. But they do as little as possible to gain election. In other words Labour keeps them honest. Remarks like John's "donkey" gives the game away of what they truly think. You only have to get Tories talking to get them to reveal what they'd really like to do to the working people of this country. That expression was a favourite one of my right wing Tory supporting mother in law. Under the skin they are exactly like the Tories of the 19th century. As for those who supported the Northern Union, I think if you look back most of the tradesmen and millowners were non-comformist Liberals, and as far as the Tories who ran the RFU, the MCC and everything else, indistinguishable from the weavers and miners playing the game.
In the sixties I played Rugby Union for a "first class club" - not for the first team miind you I wasn't good enough. But there were plenty of my mates who were, and when the sons of the millowners etc (who by now had become Tories) came home from Uni at Christmas and Easter, they were quickly dropped form the first team to make space for the club's benefactors. As a regular 3rd teamer, I of course found myself in the 4th team, as we all moved down a level to make room for them. It was good in a way - it meant for brief periods the 4th's couild play XV a side instead of "any number can play" But I know the displaced 1st teamers resented it. The class system in the UK is alive and well. Dave (Lord Snooty) and his pals is perpetuating it to the best of his ability. I believe the appointment of Lynton Crosby as election co-ordinator throws out the last pretences of "detoxification" Wait for things to turn really nasty in the next 2 1/2 years.

Good grief! You are joking, right? You don't REALLY believe what you have just written? Not even John Prescott would agree with you! This is so far from reality , so far from truth, that it shows you really have no idea about any of it. No War But Class War , eh?

[WearyRhino]

Class is not part of economics ..... what is class if it is not economic circumstances ....

Confused again?

Class is about your relationship to the means of production comrade.

[WearyRhino]

Good grief! You are joking, right? You don't REALLY believe what you have just written? Not even John Prescott would agree with you! This is so far from reality , so far from truth, that it shows you really have no idea about any of it. No War But Class War , eh?

Nonsense, Trojan is 100% correct.

[Bedford Roughyed]

In fairness to JohnM both parties use safe seats as a plaything and both abuse their party support. We all know of seats where the figurative donkey could get elected or where someone regarded as vital to the national party can be parachuted in to guarantee election (often against the local members wishes)..