78 replies to this topic

[Northern Sol]

Confused again?

Class is about your relationship to the means of production comrade.

So largely meaningless then?

If I shine shoes for a living but I own my own rag then I must be middle class.

If I am an engineer but don't own my own factory then I must be working class.

Not to mention that many jobs don't actually "produce" anything.

Edited by Northern Sol, 25 November 2012 - 08:38 PM.

[Trojan]

Good grief! You are joking, right? You don't REALLY believe what you have just written? Not even John Prescott would agree with you! This is so far from reality , so far from truth, that it shows you really have no idea about any of it. No War But Class War , eh?

I'm not joking John. What the council in Rotherham have done is wrong. But basically I believe that Labour are the good guys - they start from the premise that they want to make everyone's life better. The Tories are the opposite. It's always the Tories who take away from everyday people what they've won and give the benefit to the better off mnority. AS far as I'm concerned that is a fact of life Tories = bad guys, Labour = good guys. No matter how far they stray from these definitions, that's where they come from.
BTW I doubt John Prescott would disagree with me - if anyone can confirm the Tories derisory attitude to anyone they consider beneath them John can. The story he tells of the way Tory MP's treated him because he'd been a steward on an ocean liner speaks volumes about how the Tories see the rest of us.

[WearyRhino]

So largely meaningless then?

If I shine shoes for a living but I own my own rag then I must be middle class.

If I am an engineer but don't own my own factory then I must be working class.

Not to mention that many jobs don't actually "produce" anything.

No. It's about your "relationship" to the means of production.

Do you care to explain how "economic circumstances" it's not about economics?

[Northern Sol]

No. It's about your "relationship" to the means of production.

And how is that not "ownership"?

Do you care to explain how "economic circumstances" it's not about economics?

I said that economics doesn't talk about class. It's a sociological concept.

Insofar as it has meaning, it means how economically well-off you are and what opportunities you have.

But's that not an economics definition.

[gingerjon]

In fairness to JohnM both parties use safe seats as a plaything and both abuse their party support. We all know of seats where the figurative donkey could get elected or where someone regarded as vital to the national party can be parachuted in to guarantee election (often against the local members wishes)..

"You could put a red rosette on a pig and they'd vote for it in Rotherham."

A quote by a person who votes in Rotherham in today's Guardian.

[gingerjon]

Double double

Edited by gingerjon, 26 November 2012 - 09:57 AM.

[Wolford6]

Local Government, and similar public authorities, is the only viable refuge for hard left socialists. They distrust the right to make a profit, they distrust the motives of people with opposing political views and they feel no guilt about their own minority views influencing official impositions and decisions.

Unfortunately, their principles never extend to resigning when an instance of gross misjudgement is exposed.

[Trojan]

"You could put a red rosette on a pig and they'd vote for it in Rotherham."

A quote by a person who votes in Rotherham in today's Guardian.

This statement has already been well discussed on this thread. The question no one seems to answer is why this is the case.

[gingerjon]

This statement has already been well discussed on this thread. The question no one seems to answer is why this is the case.

I thought it worth pointing out that your ridiculous and insufferable point was that only Tories from outside Rotherham would say it about the people there thus revealing their deep-seated class hostility when in actual fact it's a common term used by people about safe seats of all hues.

[Bedford Roughyed]

Looks like Respect are causing problems in Rotherham. Labour candidate pulled out of debate on local BBC radio so she could do more door to door canvassing (poor debating skills being hidden?). Sounds like they are worried?

[gingerjon]

Looks like Respect are causing problems in Rotherham. Labour candidate pulled out of debate on local BBC radio so she could do more door to door canvassing (poor debating skills being hidden?). Sounds like they are worried?

I think Labour are very worried their vote will stay at home either out of protest or "because Labour'll win anyway". Respect are good at getting people to the ballot box.

[Trojan]

I thought it worth pointing out that your ridiculous and insufferable point was that only Tories from outside Rotherham would say it about the people there thus revealing their deep-seated class hostility when in actual fact it's a common term used by people about safe seats of all hues.

The only people I've heard make the remark are Tories -I've never heard a Labour or a Lib/'Dem for that matter say if you put up a pig and tied a blue ribbon to it etc. The remark epitomises for me the Tory attitude to Labour voters. As I posted earlier my mother in law said it frequently, with a note of contempt in her voice you'd have to hear to believe.

[Just Browny]

I thought it worth pointing out that your ridiculous and insufferable point was that only Tories from outside Rotherham would say it about the people there thus revealing their deep-seated class hostility when in actual fact it's a common term used by people about safe seats of all hues.

Which Lib Dem seats does it apply to, incidentally?

[Brendon Scooter]

I've lived in Rotherham for over 40 years and despite my personal huge disillusionment with Labour ( never again after Iraq but that's another thread ) I'd be truly astonished if they don't get voted back in again. It's just what people do in Rotherham. However If I were a betting man I think Respect may nick a few votes from them this time around.

[gingerjon]

The only people I've heard make the remark are Tories -I've never heard a Labour or a Lib/'Dem for that matter say if you put up a pig and tied a blue ribbon to it etc.

It's been said on here - quite often with specific reference to Mid Bedfordshire.

Which Lib Dem seats does it apply to, incidentally?

Sheffield Hallam once the boundary review is completed. It's going to be redrawn so it covers a single house in Putney.

[WearyRhino]

Sheffield Hallam once the boundary review is completed. It's going to be redrawn so it covers a single house in Putney.

Not sure he'd even vote for himself, he's so universally despised.

[gingerjon]

Not sure he'd even vote for himself, he's so universally despised.

But he signed this pledge to vote for himself.

[Bedford Roughyed]

Well Labour won all 3 By elections easily. Respect got stuffed. I give up my career as a political pundit.

[Trojan]

I've lived in Rotherham for over 40 years and despite my personal huge disillusionment with Labour ( never again after Iraq but that's another thread ) I'd be truly astonished if they don't get voted back in again. It's just what people do in Rotherham. However If I were a betting man I think Respect may nick a few votes from them this time around.

There has to be a reason why people habitually vote for one particular party whatever the general zeitgeist. No matter how bad things get I've no doubt the voters of Chelsea and Kensington will continue to vote Conservative. IMO that reason is that they believe that the Conservatives will "look after" their interests. I'd say the same reason explains why the voters of Rotherham habitually vote Labour. The Lib/Dems finished eighth in Rotherham so being in goverment seems to have scuppered the Lib/Dems ability to appear to be more Labour than Labour in areas like Rotherham and more Tory than the Tories in nearby Sheffield.