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Do you feel any allegiances towards County?

discussiondebate counties flags

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#1 ShotgunGold

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:23 PM

A short article by Moi for somewhere else, but I've edited it down for discussion on TRL:

We have been a nation now officially since 1707. I think it is fair to say that we have also been united since then (or near then), and it is perhaps that unity that has made our country great. With the exception of France, it is interesting to note that many other countries have not been officially united for that long, and many more have not been informally united for that long either. Regionalism and states still persist in larger countries like Australia, United States, Russia and China. Italy and Germany were not united until the late 19th century. Many countries in Eastern Europe are a curious mixture of many peoples.

For this reason I think regional identity has not always been prevalent in our country. Or should I say in England. We are of course split into four, all of which have their very own strong identity. In fact living in Wales for a while I realised just how… well… ‘Welsh’, cities like Swansea and Cardiff tried to be. But I got the distinct impression that it was the government and not the people, who were more in favour of differentiating themselves from the rest of the Union. Sport, road signs, national museums and local history might be accentuated, but Wales is still very similar to England. But yet for some reason there does seem to be a belief in Wales that although full independence is not desirable, more powers need to be given to Cardiff, that local problems need to local answers and that Westminster simply seems worlds away.

The case is similar with England. The Conservative government in 2010 were constantly proposing to give more powers back to local authorities and local communities. There is still that strong belief that delegating power closer to home can help cities and communities adapt to their individual problems. Clearly we are still a very strong nation, but are we moving closer together as a nation, or are we drifting further apart?

The way to split up Great Britain has always been by its county lines. These boundaries are some of the oldest in Western Europe – stretching back to Anglo Saxons times of 600AD. Even the conquering Norman invaders refused to change them. The first change occured by government in 1974, and successive governments have changed them even more, however the original counties were still supposed to be enshrined in non-political affairs. But in 2011 the Department for Communities set up a scheme to promote traditional English counties and said that they still form an important part in our local and cultural identity. Currently there are 48 of them recognised in England. But what exactly do they mean? They are of course not as pronounced as the state lines in the US, in fact crossing the border from Shropshire into Staffordshire you are likely to be greeted by the same sort of sign as if you were crossing from Staffordshire into Shropshire. But yet I still read in the news viewpoints and even events that seem very pro-regional.

Taking all this into consideration I ask you:
  • Are you proud of the region/county you come from?
  • What future is there for the Counties – should more power be delegated out of Westminster? Would you ever like Counties to be officially recognised with quite a bit of power (less than Welsh Assembly level)?
  • Do you like the differences between cities and counties and areas in our country or do you think it’s inevitable that just like the World is getting smaller (globalisation) our country is getting smaller to?
  • What do you think of governments and bodies - like the Welsh government for instance - that are trying to preserve their independent culture, traditions and even - despite being next door to the home of the world’s most spoken language – their national tongue?
-------------------------------

You probably didn’t know this, but recently there has been an increase in public support for counties to have their own flags. Not every county has its own flag, but most in the West and South of the country do, suggesting that the idea came from there.

County councils all have their own flags, however it is illegal for them to actually be flown without consent.

The following flags are all official and can be flown by anyone. How many can you guess??

Posted Image
^ ONE: Adopted 2012

Posted Image]
^ TWO: Adopted 2005

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^ THREE: Traditional but adopted 2011

Posted Image
^ FOUR: Adopted 2011

Posted Image
^ FIVE: Traditional but adopted 2008

Edited by ShotgunGold, 25 November 2012 - 10:05 PM.


#2 ShotgunGold

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:24 PM

Posted Image
^ SIX: Adopted ???

Posted Image
^ SEVEN: Adopted 2008

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^ EIGHT: Traditional but adopted 1995

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^ NINE: Adopted 2012, WELSH.

Posted Image
^ TEN: Traditional but adopted 2008

#3 ShotgunGold

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:25 PM

Posted Image
^ ELEVEN: Traditional, adopted ???, do you know the name of this flag??!

Posted Image
^ TWELVE: Adopted 2008

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^ THIRTEEN: Adopted 2011, though no longer a county but is instead flown in its constituency

Posted Image
^ FOURTEEN: Traditional but adopted 2011, WELSH.

Posted Image
^ FIFTEEN: Finally my favourite of all! though I have never visited the county, adopted in 2009.


C&P
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
Name of 11.
12.
13.
14.
15.

#4 ShotgunGold

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:31 PM

Posted Image

Edited by ShotgunGold, 25 November 2012 - 10:02 PM.


#5 Northern Sol

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:34 PM

The Cornish flag is called St Pirran's flag.

#6 Northern Sol

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:35 PM

Just for reference, the counties 600AD-1974AD


Not quite true.

The historical counties aren't quite that old.

#7 ShotgunGold

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:03 PM

Not quite true.

The historical counties aren't quite that old.


Yeh sorry I read the caption wrong to that map. The earliest are from that time though, and then you get a gradual effect from then on.

Edited by ShotgunGold, 25 November 2012 - 10:05 PM.


#8 Methven Hornet

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:30 PM

  • Are you proud of the region/county you come from?
I'm a bit unsure about the word pride. I'm certainly not proud in the sense that I think my nation(s), region(s), county/counties are superior to others, but, yeah, I'm quite happy that I've been blessed with the associations I have.
  • What future is there for the Counties – should more power be delegated out of Westminster? Would you ever like Counties to be officially recognised with quite a bit of power (less than Welsh Assembly level)?
It isn't really for me, as a citizen of Scotland, to decide what happens in England, but I definitely think as much power as is practical should be devolved to the appropriate local or regional level. Traditional English counties? I'm not so sure. The county I associate myself with in England is Lancashire. I was born in Manchester which is, of course, in the traditional county of Lancashire, but now the centre of Greater Manchester. Lancashire was changed for quite valid reasons, however. The county boundary between it and Cheshire cut right through the Manchester conurbation, making both unsuitable as strategic authorities for the region (Manchester, in any case, and like many large towns and cities was outside the authority of Lancashire).

In Scotland, we don't really have counties any longer, just districts/cities/unitary councils. The whole structure of local government is a bit of a mess, to be honest, as it was designed as a two-tier region/district systems but then just reduced to the lower tier. I don't see any wholesale re-structuring of local government here, though, just more 'co-operation' between neighbouring councils - Holyrood has its attention on other areas of constitutional reform!
  • Do you like the differences between cities and counties and areas in our country or do you think it’s inevitable that just like the World is getting smaller (globalisation) our country is getting smaller to?
I'm not really sure I understand the question.
  • What do you think of governments and bodies - like the Welsh government for instance - that are trying to preserve their independent culture, traditions and even - despite being next door to the home of the world’s most spoken language – their national tongue?
I think it is essential. Of course the Welsh government is not going to succeed in all that by itself, but having a national body with that sort of authority helps with co-ordinating and directing the efforts of the voluntary bodies, local authorities, non-governmental bodies and Welsh society as a whole in preserving all that is valuable about Welsh culture. In a similar vein, having a Welsh national government, even with limited powers, allows the nation to govern itself according to its own community values and priorities.
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#9 Methven Hornet

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:34 PM

I should add that even if local government in Scotland is reorganised then the traditional counties won't be making a comeback. They are just too impractical for basing a modern public administration system on
"There are now more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs."

#10 Trojan

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:44 PM

Posted Image

This is the map of British counties from when I were a lad. The bit of Cheshire that touches Yorkshire, that is now Derbyshire is there, as is "part of Flint" between Cheshire and Shropshire - I never understood that. Plus of course Yorkshire impinging on Cumbria at Sedberg and on Lancashire in the Lancaster area and around Oldham. I presume Rutland is on there too.
BTW the Notts flag will annoy the many people form Yorkshire who claim Robin Hood was a Yorkshireman.
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#11 Methven Hornet

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:51 PM

C&P
1.
2.
3.
4. Nottinghamshire
5. Yorkshire
6. Warwickshire
7.
8. Northumberland
9.
10. Lancashire
11. Cornwall
Name of 11. Saint Pirans
12.
13.
14.
15.

And that's my lot, I'm afraid.
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#12 heartofGold

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:57 PM

I'm guessing the scrawny swan one at number 3 is Bucks since they seem to think they are the only county with ducks and swans

oy shked helwa el horiya

#13 Wiltshire Rhino

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:16 AM

Posted Image
^ FIFTEEN: Finally my favourite of all! though I have never visited the county, adopted in 2009.


This is my favourite too. Not sure which County it represents though. Can anyone tell me? ;-)

Edited by Wiltshire Rhino, 26 November 2012 - 07:18 AM.


#14 Saint Billinge

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:07 AM

Although a proud Lancastrian, I love visiting and hiking in many counties. Our small group venture to Yorkshire, Cheshire, Cumbria and North Wales for our trekking. My wife and I travel further afield visiting interesting places around England and Wales, as well as taking holidays to Scotland and Ireland. I simply love our history and magnificent countryside. We are also members of the National Trust and take at least one week a year away to rent a cottage to use our membership card.

#15 Wiltshire Rhino

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:12 AM

1
2 Lincolnshire
3 Buckinghamshire
4 Nottinghamshire
5 Yorkshire
6 Warwickshire
7 Dorset
8 Northumberland
9
10 Lancashire
11 Cornwall
12 Hertfordshire
13
14
15 Wiltshire

#16 Wolford6

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:07 AM

This is the Gwent flag; though to be honest I didn't have the faintest idea what it looked like till I looked it up.

Interestingly, there is a Gwent village called Fleur de Lys and i always wondered how it got the name.


http://upload.wikime...thshire.svg.png

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#17 gingerjon

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:16 AM

This is the Gwent flag; though to be honest I didn't have the faintest idea what it looked like till I looked it up.


The flag of somewhere that existed between 1974 and 1996 is unlikely to linger too long in the mind.
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#18 tim2

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:59 AM

My county, Derbyshire, created a flag a few years ago. I quite like it.

http://en.wikipedia....g_of_Derbyshire

I support Derbyshire cricket and do feel an affinity to the county - I have lived there all my life except for a couple of years. My children all competed for the county at various sports despite all having been born in Yorkshire - none of them would see themselves as from Yorkshire.
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#19 Wolford6

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:01 AM

The flag of somewhere that existed between 1974 and 1996 is unlikely to linger too long in the mind.


The feeling for Gwent goes back centuries. The ancient county was broken up by the Normans, who built three large castles ... White Castle, Skenfrith Castle and Grosmont Castle ... to constrain the marauding locals.

Later the administration of the lands of the Duke of Mommouth was handed over to (I presume) the Duke of Oxford. My mother worked for the County Court in Pontypool and the Judges came from the Oxford circuit.

However, the kindred spirit still remains to this day.

The Men of Gwent invented the longbow and used it with devastating effect at the battle of Agincourt.

Edited by Wolford6, 26 November 2012 - 10:02 AM.

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#20 gingerjon

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:07 AM

The feeling for Gwent goes back centuries.


Like a lot of misty-eyed celticism the romance for it probably dates back no further than the start of the 1800s.
Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
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