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#201 Padge

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:47 PM

There you go again cocooned in the top tier. What you fail to mention is many teams in the lower tier at that time were attracting crowds of 3 to 4k. Even teams at the bottom of that tier were getting around a 1000. Now there is not one team in the lowest tier of pro rugby getting 1000 and in the second tier averages are only around 1500.


Define 'Many'

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#202 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:55 PM

The return of p and r with the requisite conditions met, hopefully,would let the top echelon of the CC complete their plans for SL and encourage investors and sponsors to partner them in their ambitions. If the opportunity was there I am sure, as was the case with Hull KR, Widnes, Huddersfield and Catalans then money would be maybe materialise. If not and the financial conditions were not met then no promotion.


Those 4 clubs already had good fanbases/latent fanbases and were clearly SL-ready, which is the reason they attracted investment to begin with. Your argument is cart before horse.

The biggest clubs remaining outside of SL are not of the same stature and/or operate in a saturated market. If SL wants to bring in P&R and just constantly shuffle its pack at the bottom end that's a sure fire recipe for indifference and stagnation for the sport. Fact is, 3 of those clubs are in any case at best "middle market" sides and anything but assured SL players. Only Catalan are anywhere near GF contention. They shouldn't be held up as examples, they're teams that SL needs to try to reinforce rather than terrify into overspending/chaos by virtue of reinstating the dreaded trap door.

Edited by DeadShotKeen, 29 November 2012 - 12:56 PM.


#203 saints10coach

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:00 PM

Define 'Many'

A quantifier that can be used with count nouns - often preceded by "as" or "too" or "so" or "that"; amounting to a large but indefinite number; "many temptations"; "a good many"; "many directions"; more than a few, more than several

#204 thundergaz

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:03 PM

Those 4 clubs already had good fanbases/latent fanbases and were clearly SL-ready, which is the reason they attracted investment to begin with. Your argument is cart before horse.

The biggest clubs remaining outside of SL are not of the same stature and/or operate in a saturated market. If SL wants to bring in P&R and just constantly shuffle its pack at the bottom end that's a sure fire recipe for indifference and stagnation for the sport. Fact is, 3 of those clubs are in any case at best "middle market" sides and anything but assured SL players. Only Catalan are anywhere near GF contention. They shouldn't be held up as examples, they're teams that SL needs to try to reinforce rather than terrify into overspending/chaos by virtue of reinstating the dreaded trap door.


So what you are saying is shut the door and keep it shut? Then where would most of the SL clubs get a lot of their young lads from? When most if not all the teams below the halllow grail pack in? What would be the point in running a team if there is no where to go? Can you imagine the up roar if this happened in football. Our sport is not a sport it's a mockery of sport and the rest looking in must be laughing their heads off at our game.

#205 saints10coach

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:05 PM

Those 4 clubs already had good fanbases/latent fanbases and were clearly SL-ready, which is the reason they attracted investment to begin with. Your argument is cart before horse.

The biggest clubs remaining outside of SL are not of the same stature and/or operate in a saturated market. If SL wants to bring in P&R and just constantly shuffle its pack at the bottom end that's a sure fire recipe for indifference and stagnation for the sport. Fact is, 3 of those clubs are in any case at best "middle market" sides and anything but assured SL players. Only Catalan are anywhere near GF contention. They shouldn't be held up as examples, they're teams that SL needs to try to reinforce rather than terrify into overspending/chaos by virtue of reinstating the dreaded trap door.

No they did not. Look at Huddersfield before they were elevated to the top level. There crowds were nothing. But they were promoted on the strength of having a nice ground, and allowed to stay there for many seasons. Indeed it could be said their fan base now is only due to the fact that Mr Davy subsidises their season tickets. Any club given a sustained period in the top level will increase their fan base to the required level. Except London.

Edited by saints10coach, 29 November 2012 - 01:06 PM.


#206 thundergaz

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:08 PM

No they did not. Look at Huddersfield before they were elevated to the top level. There crowds were nothing. But they were promoted on the strength of having a nice ground, and allowed to stay there for many seasons. Indeed it could be said their fan base now is only due to the fact that Mr Davy subsidises their season tickets. Any club given a sustained period in the top level will increase their fan base to the required level. Except London.


That's correct and like you say if london can be in SL on crowds they get why can't anyone else be given that chance. When it's obvious RL doesn't work in London like it didn't in Wales.

#207 Dave T

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:10 PM

So what you are saying is shut the door and keep it shut? Then where would most of the SL clubs get a lot of their young lads from? When most if not all the teams below the halllow grail pack in? What would be the point in running a team if there is no where to go? Can you imagine the up roar if this happened in football. Our sport is not a sport it's a mockery of sport and the rest looking in must be laughing their heads off at our game.

Your last point is an interesting one.

I don't see any outsiders laughing at our game (and I live well out of the heartlands and often discuss RL) - the only ones who think it's a farce are 'insiders'.

#208 Johnoco

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:15 PM

Chelsea with their revolving managers, they are laughing at RL. They think its a farce that everything is not done in the Corinthian spirit of sport.

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#209 thundergaz

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:15 PM

Your last point is an interesting one.

I don't see any outsiders laughing at our game (and I live well out of the heartlands and often discuss RL) - the only ones who think it's a farce are 'insiders'.


Right how as the RFL improved our game over the last ten years? Would a player that plays now get in the Great Britain team when ellery Hanley Shaun Edwards etc were in the team I very much doubt it Tomkins maybe but that's a big maybe. And you will probably say theirs more money in the game now and yes I agree but the level of play is worse and the more money in the game as seen teams go bust so is it realy working?

#210 Johnoco

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:19 PM

You can't see how the RFL, which didn't have a pot to pee in 10 years ago, has been improved?

How many series did the GB team with Hanley etc actually win against Australia?

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#211 thundergaz

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:21 PM

You can't see how the RFL, which didn't have a pot to pee in 10 years ago, has been improved?

How many series did the GB team with Hanley etc actually win against Australia?


The only time we beat the Aussies is if they let us we will never beat them when it matters in my life time and doubt we ever will.

#212 Gav Wilson

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:21 PM

Right how as the RFL improved our game over the last ten years? Would a player that plays now get in the Great Britain team when ellery Hanley Shaun Edwards etc were in the team I very much doubt it Tomkins maybe but that's a big maybe. And you will probably say theirs more money in the game now and yes I agree but the level of play is worse and the more money in the game as seen teams go bust so is it realy working?


Is that a serious question? If the 2012 England team played the 1994 Great Britain team tomorrow they would put 40 on them.

And if we're going back ten years like your initial question, well I just pine for the days when we could play Paul Aitcheson at Full Back with Karl Pratt and Richard Horne on the Wings...
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#213 Gav Wilson

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:22 PM

The only time we beat the Aussies is if they let us we will never beat them when it matters in my life time and doubt we ever will.


It matters in every game.
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#214 Dave T

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:24 PM

Right how as the RFL improved our game over the last ten years? Would a player that plays now get in the Great Britain team when ellery Hanley Shaun Edwards etc were in the team I very much doubt it Tomkins maybe but that's a big maybe. And you will probably say theirs more money in the game now and yes I agree but the level of play is worse and the more money in the game as seen teams go bust so is it realy working?

The 1992 touring team had the following players in the squad:
Mark Aston
Martin Dermott
Paul Eastwood
Deryck Fox
Graeme Hallas
Les Holliday
Michael Jackson
Billy McGinty
David Myers
and so on.

Sure there were plenty of class players back in the early 90's - but in another 15-20 years people will look back fondly on the likes of Tomkins, Hall, Briscoe, Sinfield, Peacock, Morley, Roby, Westwood, Hock, O'Loughlin and so on.

Back in that era we could sign Union players to bolster our team, and they could not sign RL players. Times have changed.

#215 intheshed

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:25 PM

There you go again cocooned in the top tier. What you fail to mention is many teams in the lower tier at that time were attracting crowds of 3 to 4k. Even teams at the bottom of that tier were getting around a 1000. Now there is not one team in the lowest tier of pro rugby getting 1000 and in the second tier averages are only around 1500.


There was certainly a point in time where lower division crowds where higher than now, 92/93 when fev were in the 8 team 2nd div being an example i can back up to a degree. Whether this was truly representative of general trends i dont know.

On specific crowds that year fev played oldham 4 times in the league and crowds ranged from 3300-4400, games against Hudds were just shy 3000 both home & away. So I guess some teams were capable of drawing, if not averaging, 3-4k.

Whether the above is representative of true long term crowd levels or would indeed constitute 'many clubs' will require stats from more years and a judgement call on what is 'many'.

Incidently, swinton, bramley & rochdale all drew 1500+ crowds for home games with fev, carlisle & london were sub 1k if that assists at all with the 1000+ part of the claim.

#216 Johnoco

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:28 PM

The only time we beat the Aussies is if they let us we will never beat them when it matters in my life time and doubt we ever will.

We didn't beat them during the Hanley era but you're holding them up as an example of how good it was then.

How can the Aussies be so good without all the things that make sport 'real'?

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

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#217 thundergaz

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:30 PM

The 1992 touring team had the following players in the squad:
Mark Aston
Martin Dermott
Paul Eastwood
Deryck Fox
Graeme Hallas
Les Holliday
Michael Jackson
Billy McGinty
David Myers
and so on.

Sure there were plenty of class players back in the early 90's - but in another 15-20 years people will look back fondly on the likes of Tomkins, Hall, Briscoe, Sinfield, Peacock, Morley, Roby, Westwood, Hock, O'Loughlin and so on.

Back in that era we could sign Union players to bolster our team, and they could not sign RL players. Times have changed.


If you look at position for position back then to now i know i would have a lot more past players than present players in my GB squad. Also our games improved that much that 90% of the SL coaches are australian and the best players in the world are still and i repeat myself are still australian.

Edited by thundergaz, 29 November 2012 - 01:31 PM.


#218 Gav Wilson

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:31 PM

If you look at position for position back then to now i know i would have a lot more past players than present players in my GB squad. Also our games improved that much that 90% of the SL coaches are australian and the best players in the world are still and i repeat myself are still australian.


Its amazing what can be achieved without promotion and relegation isn't it...
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#219 thundergaz

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:32 PM

We didn't beat them during the Hanley era but you're holding them up as an example of how good it was then.

How can the Aussies be so good without all the things that make sport 'real'?


The australian team was better back then than it is now IMO too.

#220 thundergaz

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:33 PM

Its amazing what can be achieved without promotion and relegation isn't it...


Gav im not having a go mate i just dont see how our games improved on the pitch thats all i know it as off it with more sponsors etc.




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