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Oldham /Salford


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#321 JohnM

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:49 AM

Exactly. And it can be done! I was a season ticket holder at Central Park right up to the end..our neighbouring season ticket holders in the Douglas stand refused point blank to go to the JJB (DW as is) and I suspect they were not alone. Look at the crowds at the DW now!

#322 saints10coach

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:55 AM

The SL drawbridge, as you put it, has not been raised. Is there, open and ready for those with the will, the desire and the ability to cross it.

With a 3 year wait after each unsuccessful attempt.

#323 roughyedspud

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:15 PM

The same happened with York in 1989 mate. You've just gotta accept that those stubborn miserable sods aren't coming back, and spend your limited money, time and energy in bringing in a brand new generation of fans. It'll be worth it in the long run!


i stopped following my club a couple of days ago.............for about 24 hours :lol:

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#324 Dave T

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:44 PM

And even if you do that and the figures for tier 2 and 3 come no where near the pre SL figures. I would extend that to say no where near the figures before the SL draw bridge was raised.

im not sure, the only quoted figures asude from yours were Padges which suggest 1700 in div 2 was the previous level. I expect a 2nd division with Salford, Cas, Widnes etc to attract a few half decent crowds like those you quoted a while back.

All those years back Oldham may hsve been the 12-15th biggest club in the game, meaning they could draw some good crowds. The 12-15th biggest teams now can also draw crowds.

#325 roughyedspud

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:49 PM

so nothing as changed then?

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#326 Dave T

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:16 PM

so nothing as changed then?

Well yes - as had been identified, the top level now has much higher. Previously the top 12 or so averaged a hell of a lot lower than now.

The debate seems to be around whether the next 10 clubs have seen big drops, which is what was claimed by one and dismissed by another.

#327 JohnM

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:30 PM

With a 3 year wait after each unsuccessful attempt.


It still a drawbridge, its still down and all clubs clearly know what they have to do to cross it. Of course, if a club does not get an SL licence, it know what it has to do to get one, and can spend the next three years getting ist act together. Our game has for so long been criticised by the fans for being too short term in outlook. That has now been remedied.

#328 roughyedspud

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:35 PM

Well yes - as had been identified, the top level now has much higher. Previously the top 12 or so averaged a hell of a lot lower than now.

The debate seems to be around whether the next 10 clubs have seen big drops, which is what was claimed by one and dismissed by another.


which is par for the course in every RL deabate.....one says one thing...some one says another...and we all end up talking about GB.......lol

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#329 saints10coach

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:46 PM

Well yes - as had been identified, the top level now has much higher. Previously the top 12 or so averaged a hell of a lot lower than now.

The debate seems to be around whether the next 10 clubs have seen big drops, which is what was claimed by one and dismissed by another.

Just fuels my argument for the greed of SL, not just taking all the sponsorship money, but also stealing the crowds from the ones that can't afford to advertise because they get nowt from the league. And nothing to sell to potential spectators because it will be at least 3 years before we can play against the top clubs and only then if they let us.

#330 Dave T

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:56 PM

Just fuels my argument for the greed of SL, not just taking all the sponsorship money, but also stealing the crowds from the ones that can't afford to advertise because they get nowt from the league. And nothing to sell to potential spectators because it will be at least 3 years before we can play against the top clubs and only then if they let us.

it doesnt really fuel or even support your argument unless you shoehorn the point in to make it fit your argument.

#331 saints10coach

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:08 PM

it doesnt really fuel or even support your argument unless you shoehorn the point in to make it fit your argument.

Do you mean like the way you did with your argument about the top 12 teams earlier. The point I am most interested in is Oldham's crowds have gone from around 3000 when in the lower divisions to around 500. Not all of the reasons for this can be blamed on the club or the town. If you are looking to see if there is still interest in the sport in this town, take a look at the two hottest thread titles on this forum in the last few weeks.

#332 keighley

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:22 PM

It still a drawbridge, its still down and all clubs clearly know what they have to do to cross it. Of course, if a club does not get an SL licence, it know what it has to do to get one, and can spend the next three years getting ist act together. Our game has for so long been criticised by the fans for being too short term in outlook. That has now been remedied.


It's only a half opened one way bridge though. They didn't send Bradford back across it when they failed to meet the financial criteria of solvency.

#333 Dave T

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:29 PM

Do you mean like the way you did with your argument about the top 12 teams earlier. The point I am most interested in is Oldham's crowds have gone from around 3000 when in the lower divisions to around 500. Not all of the reasons for this can be blamed on the club or the town. If you are looking to see if there is still interest in the sport in this town, take a look at the two hottest thread titles on this forum in the last few weeks.

I would argue that unlike you I have no pre-determined opinion on this topic. I genuinely had no idea whether the crowds were as good in the lower divisions as you claimed - the evidence from a source here who is normally reliable suggests your figures were out.
I prefer to base my opinions on actual figures, not what are in my head. Again, I can't make my mind up as the two sources here state conflicting things, and I have no source myself.

If the lower divisions stayed similar, and the higher division doubled, I'm not sure that how is evidence of greed within SL or any crowd stealing. If your numbers were right about crowds halving in lower divisions then this could be a fair assertion.
Oldham's stature in the game is low now, it should be compared to a club who's stature was low at the time, otherwise it's not a like-for-like comparison.

On the thread point, again, that is not really evidence, the vast majority of people are not Oldham fans on the threads, they are arguing about franchising/P&R and so on.

I find this a similar debate to the Cumbria point. If there was enough interest (and this includes from fans, investors, councils, sponsors) then they would be up where they supposedly belong, because let's be honest with the current setup the competition isn;t that high.

#334 saints10coach

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:47 PM

Dave T I have no pre-determined opinion. I am posting on this thread headed Oldham/Salford about Oldham. Yes you are quite right Oldham's standing in the game at the moment is low. It has been low in the past, but the level of attendance at the clubs games has never been as low. Whilst not winning a major trophy since I have been supporting the club. Oldham are still the eighth most successful team in Rugby League. Since going bust in 1996 and reforming, we have managed to get to six finals. There is an underlying interest in the sport in the town of Oldham. But it is being suppressed by the none level playing field we have to contend with.

#335 JohnM

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:40 PM

It's only a half opened one way bridge though. They didn't send Bradford back across it when they failed to meet the financial criteria of solvency.


They could have done, though, however daft that would have been,. Anyway, I thought you were talking about barriers to entry not barriers to exit.

#336 JohnM

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:43 PM

it is being suppressed by the none level playing field we have to contend with.


Do you ever get that feeling of deja vu? :) What is suppressing the club?

#337 Keith T

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:44 PM

It still a drawbridge, its still down and all clubs clearly know what they have to do to cross it. Of course, if a club does not get an SL licence, it know what it has to do to get one, and can spend the next three years getting ist act together. Our game has for so long been criticised by the fans for being too short term in outlook. That has now been remedied.


The drawbridge could be up or down and we could have half a dozen clubs that fulfilled all the criteria for entry but it still would come down to would they be allowed in and a current SL club relegated. If your club was fifth or sixth best of those clubs that's at least 15 to 18 years wait providing SLE allowed anyone in!!!

Edited by Keith T, 30 November 2012 - 04:45 PM.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#338 Dave T

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:04 PM

Dave T I have no pre-determined opinion. I am posting on this thread headed Oldham/Salford about Oldham. Yes you are quite right Oldham's standing in the game at the moment is low. It has been low in the past, but the level of attendance at the clubs games has never been as low. Whilst not winning a major trophy since I have been supporting the club. Oldham are still the eighth most successful team in Rugby League. Since going bust in 1996 and reforming, we have managed to get to six finals. There is an underlying interest in the sport in the town of Oldham. But it is being suppressed by the none level playing field we have to contend with.

Fair enough mate, let's see what happens this coming season.

#339 Padge

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:21 PM

Compare your researched facts with today. Not one team in the Championship is getting 2,800. Any of the third tier clubs would be proud of getting 788. I also notice Oldham being mentioned twice with averages of 3,149. Today's average for the same club is around the 500 mark. What a success the advent of SL has made for our sport.

No, lets compare the actual figures compared to the figures you claimed, you were way off beam, did you just make the figure up?

You completely wrongly claimed that MANY clubs got between 3k - 4k pre SL, unless your definition of many is 0, 1 or 2, which is it? You perhaps should have said, "in the period mentioned occasionally the odd team would get just over 3k if we were lucky"

Now here are the crucial figures:

How many people attended professional RL games in 2011, 1,884,398 how many attended in 93/94 (2 division), 1,679,897.

Since 1994 up to 2011 overall attendances at pro RL games have INCREASED by 164,501

In the season previous in the 90s that I used for comparison earlier (because they had 3 divisions) 92/93, the aggregate attendances were 1,451,372. Now that means comparing 2011 with the last pre SL 3 division competition there is now a massive INCREASE OF 393,026

So all this failure has increased the number of people attending RL games massively

I'll leave you to put 2 + 2 together and work out which change had the biggest effect of decreasing gates. The clues are there.

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#340 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:24 PM

It still a drawbridge, its still down and all clubs clearly know what they have to do to cross it. Of course, if a club does not get an SL licence, it know what it has to do to get one, and can spend the next three years getting ist act together. Our game has for so long been criticised by the fans for being too short term in outlook. That has now been remedied.


Thats a lie as the rules change as they go along. For instance Crusaders were never anywhere near the minimum standards required and the RFL did everything including helping them with dodgy visas. Also the RFL announced in March 31 2011 that Halifax met the minimum standards required for entry in to SL. Yet a couple of months later they were not. And there is noway on earth that Bradford Bulls met the minimum requirements and its unlikely Cas, Salford or London did at that time. Which team has ever been kicked out of SL during the licence phrase? And yet how many clubs have gone into administration? So your comment about clubs knowing what they have to do to get in to SL is wrong. The RFL dont have the balls to kick a poor standard team(s) out. On the other side of the coin under the current structure no championship team is ready for SL as most of the SL clubs are not or else they wouldnt be so many in trouble and looking to save money even though it damages the game in other areas




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