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#621 Bleep1673

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:52 PM

Aggregate Attendance Pre-SL and SL
93/94 -- 1364056 16 Team Top Flight
2011 --- 1615939 14 Team Top Flight

Ave. 93/94 85253.5
Ave 2011 115424.214

30170 increase per club in 2011, for less games
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#622 Dave T

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:57 PM

I can give you the averages graph, but the question was are more people watching now than in the past.

Cheers Padge - so whichever way it is cut, the crowds are up!

#623 Trojan

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:34 PM

Which begs the questions that I trust you will answer..

1. How competetive would we be today internationally without SKY money??
2. Will P & R improve international competetiveness??

We can only compare it with the past. In 1995 we got to the World Cup final, we beat Australia at Wembley in the first round of the comp. Immediately before Super League. We haven't come anywhere near being as competitive since. The last two World Cups have been unmitigated disasters as far as England's performances on the field are concerned.
P &R will provide the intensity that players need in more games. ATM there are too many easybeats. Clubs can write games off thinking they've little chance. They do. John Kear admitted it in 2011. They wouldn't be able to do that with P&R. So yes I think P&R would improve our international performances. Fev and Batley both proved in the cup that they're both capable of either beating or at least giving SL sides a scare.

"This is a very wealthy country, money is no object" D. Cameron February 2014


#624 Trojan

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:37 PM

I'm fairly certain that if RL had rejected the SKY money, Australian clubs would also have rejected theirs and would not have advanced one inch from that point. :rolleyes:

But it's said there was another offer on the table for the British clubs from the ARL. It was not even discussed.

"This is a very wealthy country, money is no object" D. Cameron February 2014


#625 Marauder

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:40 PM

Doesn't surprise me that crowds are up, this is one area where clubs have really worked hard with pre-match entertainment being anything from a Opera singer to a Pop group, Clowns to tigers on motorbikes, then there is the various ticket packages from freebees to 2 for the price of 1.
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#626 Padge

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:48 PM

But it's said there was another offer on the table for the British clubs from the ARL. It was not even discussed.


Have you got a reference for that offer, I have a lot of stuff on this and its the first I've heard. Would love to take a look at anything that mentions it.

Edit:

Just thinking about this how could it have worked?

Any offer from the ARL would have had to involve Packer televising UK games, he had no UK presence and even if he bought the rights he would have no delivery method to the UK market.

Edited by Padge, 05 December 2012 - 09:00 PM.


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#627 shaun mc

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:56 PM

What we can't take out of those figures are the season ticket holders that don't show up - a practice of inclusion in attendance figures that is more prevalent now.

Whilst the increase in SL crowds is great for the game and headlines - we need the SL attendances to keep pace wit the union crowds and it was good when Leeds were the 'best supported rugby club' before Leicester union increased their ground capacity.

What is not so positive is that the SL attendances are a much greater proportion of the total RL crowds and that crowd increases are gravitating to only one competition, whilst the Championship is about level overall (but less of the total), the Challenge Cup and internationals have decreased.

#628 Padge

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:00 PM

Doesn't surprise me that crowds are up,

But people keep denying it???

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#629 Keith T

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:53 PM

Another thing about season ticket holders, their numbers cannot always be the actual number sold for each match so the total number of season tickets sold is divided by the number of home matches they are used for and that average number is added to the pay at the gate numbers, to show the attendance.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#630 The Parksider

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:59 PM

But people keep denying it???


Aggregate Attendance Pre-SL and SL

93/94 -- 1,364056

2011 --- 1,615,939
minus 251,883 season ticket holder games in which they didn't show up.
nett total 1,364.056

Crowds have not increased under Superleague. Fact.

#631 Padge

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:20 PM

What we can't take out of those figures are the season ticket holders that don't show up - a practice of inclusion in attendance figures that is more prevalent now.

Whilst the increase in SL crowds is great for the game and headlines - we need the SL attendances to keep pace wit the union crowds and it was good when Leeds were the 'best supported rugby club' before Leicester union increased their ground capacity.

What is not so positive is that the SL attendances are a much greater proportion of the total RL crowds and that crowd increases are gravitating to only one competition, whilst the Championship is about level overall (but less of the total), the Challenge Cup and internationals have decreased.

Season ticket holders that don't turn up are irrelevant, they have paid for their seat, its money in the bank, and its that what counts.

The differential is a natural result of the maths of growth. If overall the games attendances increase by 5%, if one club averages 1,000/year and another 10,000 and they both have 5% growth for 10 years then at the end of 10 years the lower number has increased by 551, but the higher crowd will have increased by 5,513.

In the next year the lower crowd wil increase by 775 where as the higher figure jumps by 7756. As crowds increase the differences get more exaggerated.

A major factor though in distorting the average figures is the changes in divisional formats and the explains a lot of the sudden swings that are seen in the graphs I put up for averages.

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#632 Dennis Bloodnock

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:32 PM

I would imagine that the switch to Summer rugby could have helped the increase in crowds ?
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#633 Padge

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:36 PM

Another thing about season ticket holders, their numbers cannot always be the actual number sold for each match so the total number of season tickets sold is divided by the number of home matches they are used for and that average number is added to the pay at the gate numbers, to show the attendance.

Do the clubs give season ticket holders money back for games they don't attend, thought not, their seat is sold, it can't be used by anyone else it is therefore occupied whether there is a bum on it or not.

Edited by Padge, 05 December 2012 - 10:43 PM.


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Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

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#634 Padge

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:42 PM

I would imagine that the switch to Summer rugby could have helped the increase in crowds ?

It will be a combination of factors, Summer being one, once people got used to the idea. Marketing has improved immensely also and better facilities seem to have certainly helped some clubs.

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#635 shaun mc

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:56 PM

I'd put better facilities/new stadia ahead of the switch to summer as one of the reasons for the SL increase.

Friday nights v Sunday afternoons? Maybe a small factor? Can you split them Padge?.................

..............Thought not :P

#636 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:01 PM

What you miss is your championship darlings currently don't even meet the latter standards, but Castleford, Salford and even London beat them by a mile.

I have said on many occassions that I am happy where Fax are whether they actually meet the standards or not. In March 2011 they did the RFL said so publically, then in the space of 2 months didnt for some reason. Whether my club is in SL or not is not that important, but you seem to think for me it is.

You also raise the silly old chestnut of telling us a club who is not under pressure to compete in the lower division making a few grand on a small turnover is "well managed" and those badly stretched to compete, and pushed to compete against the biggest clubs in Britain are "badly managed".

Championship Clubs who are working to maybe one day return to the top division are under pressure if only from their fans and sponsors. And surely its better to be making a small modest profit playing and working at a level you can compete with than playing in the Utopian world of SL where clubs dont have the finances or business management to be run well and end up making massive losses like Crusaders, Salford, Bradford, London, Wakefield , Castleford have done. You can keep making excuses for clubs in SL but the fact is the game at the top is not viable and the RFL are wrong to go throwing away millions over the years on pro clubs when that money should be going into grassroots and development rugby at amateur level.

Oh my! You have to be joking? Oldham have re-built? Workington have re-built? This is another old chestnut that you can re-build in the Championship, a league in which crowds actually go nowhere and stay the same as they have always been for years, unless you do well in the league which pulls a few hundred more in. A league in which you feed of the Superleague scraps when it comes to players and if you develop your own you get the lads who couldn't make SL academy. Anyone who slips the net gets picked up by SL. A league in which rich men show no interest in being in. Is the championship really somewhere where you can build a playing squad build a crowd and build up a large pot of money?

What happened to Oldham in SL? Went bust disappeared. The current Oldham club is in a better shape than the SL version as it lives within its means and is not ready to go bankrupt and disappear. Workington in SL ran up massive debts that again nearly killed them. The Workington of today is finacially in a much better shape and is living within its means and has been promoted. Its rebuilt itself into a better run club than previously. Shame that you cant see that but then I am not surprised due to your SL is so super blindness. You may choose to belittle the Championship as you just have done. The fact is Championship clubs dont go running up huge debts like SL clubs. Some even make a small profit unlike Sl ones. Championship clubs live within their limits. And if you believe that rich men dont invest in Championship clubs then you clearly have no idea. Try reading about Tony Abbott and Reactivmedia http://www.halifaxco...lland-1-3889323 .

You now prove my point. 15 & 16 years on and Oldham and Workington are "not ready". Halifax crashed out 10 years ago.

Who said they are ready for SL? Nobody. Its just you thinking what people put instead of actually properly reading what people put. But then thats how you base your argument on most of the time.

SL has attracted £250,000,000 into the game in SKY contracts and investments from rich businessmen, that's a quarter of a Billion pounds isn't it? I'm not surprised the RFL bend over backwards to shore SL up. I don't see how that's "bad" for the game.I challenge you and all the other posters on here condemning Superleague to set out a vision for the games future success without this evil thing called SKY that so consumes the game by it's demands?

Your love affair with SL clearly clouds your judgement of views of the game as a whole. The RFL should not be stepping in and helping the likes of Crusaders, Bradford, London or any other Pro club. There is enough money in the Pro game via Sky, Various sponsors, crowd attendances, Merchandise as well individual backers to cover costs. Its only down to poor management and overpaying players and such things as wasting money on Pre Season trips to USA, South Africa etc that sees clubs in debt. If clubs cant compete at SL level then maybe they should accept things and step down to Championship level and live within their means like others manage to do.
The RFL should be ploughing money in to Development Officers and grassroots development not spending hundreds of thousands at Bradford or Crusaders. We have recently seen a large number of Development Officers disappear after a big reduction in money from Sport England. The RFL should have done is spent the money used at Bradford, Crusaders etc on this to keep improving this area. The RFL have done well with development and grassroots rugby but it has to keep investing as much money and time and effort in to it still than wasting money, time and effort on basketcase Pro clubs. Instead of having a top heavy system the game needs to build a strong grassroots foundation. The reason why Union and Soccer is strong is because they have for many years a solid structure away from the Pro League/top divisions. Its often the reason why many will attend Internationals etc. The Union network works very well with its International scene and often why they get such good crowds. Rugby League has a history of poor grassroots and development foundation with many splits and nobody uniting the game so that one teir like the amateur supports the Pro and vice versa. Maybe its time to accept that sadly 14 or even 12 clubs in SL is not right. Minimum Standards should apply in SL and if teams cant keep or reach then standards then they shouldnt be in SL. Its very simply. P & R is again something that I am not too concerned with. If we are to have it then it should come with strict rules that apply for both teams hoping to get into Sl and teams already there. That doesnt seem to be the case right now. There is no perfect plan as each option will have weaknesses. But for me the game should be built on having a much stronger youth and amateur scene nationwide than what is currently there. The Pro game has enough money being thrown at it and its not the RFLs Job to bail out any club whether it be a Sl or Championship club. It can offer advice but not give away money in my opinion.

#637 Padge

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:05 PM

I'd put better facilities/new stadia ahead of the switch to summer as one of the reasons for the SL increase.

Friday nights v Sunday afternoons? Maybe a small factor? Can you split them Padge?.................

..............Thought not :P

I probably could given time, but can I really be @r$ed, no.

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#638 shaun mc

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:10 PM

The £250 million has been available to SL clubs for them to take their future in their hands by their development of reserve, academy and scholarship structures.
Now that the reserve competition has been declared as not fit for purpose, and not of the standard of lower level Championship clubs says a lot about how a proportion of that £250 million has been spent.
They can't even afford £1.4million between them for a whole season of development via the reserve competition

#639 shaun mc

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:12 PM

I probably could given time, but can I really be @r$ed, no.


I wouldn't have done it either Padge. Maybe the RFL will have those stats and analysis at their fingertips when they review each season and marketing strategies etc

#640 shaun mc

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:17 PM

Picking up the attendances totals from previous posts :

SL has increased by 18.47% from 93/94 to 2011 - 1,364,056 to 1,615,939

All attendances have increased by 9.79% - 1,679,897 to 1,844,398

Remainder = championship - from 315,841 down to 228,459

Does that mean the Championship (the remainder) has decreased by 27.67% or have I missed another set of stats in a post? These are League games only, excluding Challenge cup and play-offs?

Edited by shaun mc, 05 December 2012 - 11:25 PM.