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#721 Dave T

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:18 PM

And that's exactly where they do go and the job they are doing with them leaves a lot to be desired .

The RFL could distribute them a little more fairly and then there might be some suitable replacements for the many SL failures.

It depends what is classed as 'a little more fairly' - there is a very valid argument that the money going to the 15 shareholders (the 14 clubs plus the RFL) is fair.

#722 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:42 PM

Firstly the SKY money was not provided to benefit the amateur game, but if you mean through payments to junior clubs for players then the problem of ripping them off was around long before SL, but there we go. Blame SL for everything.

You and others have said SL saved the game. Now you saying it didnt as Sky money was not provided to benefit the amateur game. So you talk more rubbish as normal. SL didnt save the game of Rugby League as you have just said. The amateur game would have still carried on anyway. SL and Sky likely saved a few pro clubs from going under but even then it didnt save the pro game as no doub it could have carried on although on less money. I havent blamed SL for everything-thats just your wild imagination again where you make things up what others are alleged to have posted. But thats how you roll making up things and only answering certain things.

A quick look at the amateur leagues especially junior leagues shows the wealth of people in SL areas who form and administer clubs, and the wealth of young players who join and go on to become professionals. The vast majority of professionals today come from Superleague areas, places where loads more people go watch their local SL club then go form or get involved or get their kids involved at the local club.

You really have little idea about how most people get playing the game or be involved as can be seen how you view things. Most kids get involved through either friends and family or vis Development Officers going in to Schools etc and introducing the game. Why is their a large number of kids playing the game in Halifax, Heavy Woolen area, Oldham, Cumbria, Hemel Hempstead, Telford? Oh it must be the local SL team they watch! Seriously you have no idea on how important such things as how important the role of development officers are and how they bring the game to kids.


Still it must be a mirage before my very eyes the adults and kids enthused by the Rhinos, and the new clubs that have formed on the back of that, for according to you there's no correlation whatsoever between the success of the senior game in an area and the amateur game, which flies flat in the face of the analysis.

I didnt say there is no correlation that is once again you making things up as usual. I said MOST people play because of Family and Friends or from development officers going in to the school or running a camp etc. Are you now trying to say SL now makes most kids watch the game and play? Why do you have to lie and make things up what people said I dont know. Maybe its to think you know best.

All those clubs in York Doncaster Rochdale Swinton and Sheffield springing up with kids queuing up to play thanks to development officers, my what powers of persuasion they must have........

Are you saying the role of development officers is not worth it? Have a look at how Development officers in London, Telford, Wales, North East etc have helped both open age and junior teams to be formed and work with clubs in running things. I would bet a good 75% of clubs outside the heartlands were setup directly or indirectly due to a development officer. And kids do play Rugby League in Sheffield, York etc and much of that development has been made through development officers. Your ignorance is an insult to people who have contributed much to the game and its growth.

"Where do you think Rugby League would be today if the game had rejected the SKY offer of millions of pounds a year to stage an elite competition"

Well there would still be a semi pro game with maybe the same clubs but paying out less money. The amateur, youth and student game would still be where it is. There would still be internationals and maybe it would be better with closer games and cooperation against France and Wales etc. Australia doesnt care about Internationals anyway and cant even be bothered to play this year. SL saved or helped one small section of the game. It didnt save the game as you keep posting. But even then its not the clubs that have benefitted most its the players and the agents.

Maybe your next post could be done without making up something or thinking what people have put.

#723 keighley

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:08 PM

Well there would still be a semi pro game with maybe the same clubs but paying out less money. The amateur, youth and student game would still be where it is. There would still be internationals and maybe it would be better with closer games and cooperation against France and Wales etc. Australia doesnt care about Internationals anyway and cant even be bothered to play this year. SL saved or helped one small section of the game. It didnt save the game as you keep posting. But even then its not the clubs that have benefitted most its the players and the agents.

Maybe your next post could be done without making up something or thinking what people have put.


The way things are going, if they don't solve SL's financial problems soon, they will be reverting to semi pro or die.

#724 Keith T

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:32 PM

You may note that you will see very few posts from fans of SL clubs that split the game out as SL vs Championship. The only posts I see on this kind of theme is from some fans of some Championship clubs who seem to have a real hatred of the SL.

Whilst it may be understandable to an extent, I have read many posts from people stating that they never watch Sooper Dooper League (or similar) and criticise everything about it, when there is pretty much no animosity the other way. This 'split' is a one way argument in my experience, where fans of SL clubs are dismissed as not proper fans much of the time, with some people ignoring what these people do to support the game.


Sorry, I think you are giving a blinkered view there. On this forum and others there are many disparaging or patronising posts from fans of SL clubs about Championship clubs, mainly I would suggest through a lack of knowledge of the Championships by many SL fans.

By it's very nature of being the "elite" division of the game SL is something that most Championship club fans see in newspapers, magazines, on TV, and therefore know quite a lot about the various clubs and their players, etc. On the other hand SL club fans struggle to know much about Championship clubs or who their players are, etc, and, unless it has some relevance on their clubs affairs, couldn't care less. So in my book it's not a one way thing and the perceived (by Championship club fans) closed shop that SL club fans jealously fight to safeguard is one area where this comes out most.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#725 Dave T

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:41 PM

Sorry, I think you are giving a blinkered view there. On this forum and others there are many disparaging or patronising posts from fans of SL clubs about Championship clubs, mainly I would suggest through a lack of knowledge of the Championships by many SL fans.

By it's very nature of being the "elite" division of the game SL is something that most Championship club fans see in newspapers, magazines, on TV, and therefore know quite a lot about the various clubs and their players, etc. On the other hand SL club fans struggle to know much about Championship clubs or who their players are, etc, and, unless it has some relevance on their clubs affairs, couldn't care less. So in my book it's not a one way thing and the perceived (by Championship club fans) closed shop that SL club fans jealously fight to safeguard is one area where this comes out most.

Happy to be proved wrong - I have seen very few negative comments about the Championship from fans of SL clubs. I have seen hundreds the other way.

There are plenty of fans of SL clubs who also attend Championship games, play themselves, coach, invest money etc. yet because they support a SL club their views are easily dismissed, which interestingly is pretty much what you did above!

#726 Johnoco

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:46 PM

Has anyone ever heard the phrase '2 bald men fighting over a comb'?

It possibly was invented for RL and its fans.

#727 shaun mc

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:05 PM

Dave T -

Try arguing the case for a CC club over London in SL and see the keyboard warriors go into action and take note of whats said.

There are posts in this thread alone (or maybe the other Salford one) that are particularly derogatory to CC clubs, especially, but not exclusively, Oldham

#728 Dave T

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:30 PM

Dave T -

Try arguing the case for a CC club over London in SL and see the keyboard warriors go into action and take note of whats said.

There are posts in this thread alone (or maybe the other Salford one) that are particularly derogatory to CC clubs, especially, but not exclusively, Oldham

There will be posts criticising clubs from any division, and SL clubs like London, Salford, Cas etc. get more than their fair share of criticism. There are one or two people who have particularly strong views on this, especially around the money that it costs to run a SL club, but in general there is little real criticism of the Championship as a comp, or criticism of how the clubs act etc.

I'm certainly not suggesting there is no negativity about individual clubs/incidents etc. of course there is, but there is no systemic criticism of the comp or teams.

#729 shaun mc

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:44 PM

Perhaps so.......its a natural occurrence as well
If you are in SL with access to £1m plus from Sky - you will want to keep it.
If you are a CC club with access to very little funding up front in the same manner as Sky, you are going to want to get a part of it.

There are negative posts around SL. There are also a good number of posts that come across as well you are in the lower division, you may as well just stay there and look up to us. Its the english class thing kicking in.

#730 Dave T

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:51 PM

There are negative posts around SL. There are also a good number of posts that come across as well you are in the lower division, you may as well just stay there and look up to us. Its the english class thing kicking in.

I just don't see that, but naturally I don't read all the forum posts, so who knows what I miss!

Many supporters want a return of P&R, but many also want to see licensing given a proper chance. Many are of the opinion that licensing can work, and if Featherstone, or Halifax or whoever are a stronger club than Cas, Salford or whoever then fair enough. I can only think of 1 or 2 people on here who don't think clubs could step up, and I'm not sure if they are SL fans.

#731 shaun mc

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:05 PM

There is more of a trend of posts towards considering P & R and alternative P & R and liceniong strategies, now than there was say when Bradford were in trouble.
The SL clubs have allegedly discussed P&R in Newby Bridge, but then the outcome was to create 4 further sub-committees and nothing was decided. A representative of the Championship clubs at least should have been invited, even just for the session around licencing and P & R.

#732 The Parksider

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:54 PM

Parky,

You are a master at redirection when your posts seem to be heading for the rocks.

In this instance your claim was that no rich persons would ever be interested in investing in CC clubs. When the error of this claim is shown to you, the redirection begins and the thrust of your argument becomes that the said clubs will be in SL soon so then they won't be shown to be investing in CC clubs.


Yes that's right.

Rich men do not settle for second best so either they pick up a Superleague club like Leeds, Wire or Wigan...

Or they pick up a CC club like Hull.K.R, or Widnes and make it into a Superkeague club.

Thing is HKR and Widnes are big clubs in my lifetime who had big potential to get back to the top.

Rich men would not touch actual CC/small clubs like keighley and Hunslet.

We have to live with this my friend :D

Never won nowt much York were once in the top division did that make them a big club? In your mind yes :rolleyes:

Won dozens of trophies Wigan were once a CC club for a year- were they a small club that year? In your mind yes :lol:

Rich men want to invest in big clubs and do.

Small clubs dont get rich men investing.

Focus on this carefully and stop focusing on me.

#733 thundergaz

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:55 PM

in general there is little real criticism of the Championship as a comp, or criticism of how the clubs act etc.



That's because IMO champ 1 is more competitive than SL.

#734 The Parksider

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:00 AM

Try arguing the case for a CC club over London


Try finding a CC club that gets bigger crowds than London Broncos and produces more professional players???

Go on try.........

Let me know when you can't find anyone.

You know the Broncos once averaged 5,400 fans.

Try finding CC clubs that could match that??

#735 The Parksider

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:09 AM

"Where do you think Rugby League would be today if the game had rejected the SKY offer of millions of pounds a year to stage an elite competition"

ANSWER "Well there would still be a semi pro game". (1)

The amateur, youth and student game would still be where it is (2).

There would still be internationals and maybe it would be better with closer games (3)


1. Indeed there would on crowds of 200 - 2,000. Nice one.

2. Yes I'm sure if Rugby league gave up the ghost people "on the ground" would not give up the ghost just to suit your illogical nonsensical argument.

3. Yeh, I can't wait until we abandon professional RL in this country so that we can have closer games with Australia and New Zealand. Why not just go 100% amateur then we can win the world cup??

#736 Marauder

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:11 AM

Try finding a CC club that gets bigger crowds than London Broncos and produces more professional players???

Go on try.........

Let me know when you can't find anyone.

You know the Broncos once averaged 5,400 fans.

Try finding CC clubs that could match that??

Halifax @ a guess
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#737 The Parksider

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:14 AM

Halifax @ a guess


No not really.

London produce far more professionals than Halifax.

Halifax draw around 2,000 fans.

I've been in the odd Thrum Hall crowd with several thousand Leeds fans. (geddit?)

CC clubs do well crowd wise when the big away side is down the road.

ANYWAY it's past your bedtime....

#738 The Parksider

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:26 AM

1. You may note that you will see very few posts from fans of SL clubs that split the game out as SL vs Championship. The only posts I see on this kind of theme is from some fans of some Championship clubs who seem to have a real hatred of the SL.

2. Whilst it may be understandable to an extent,


1. I noticed that. I have this feeling that their hatred clouds their judgement to some extent...

Well thinking about it, maybe to a large extent.....

Erm well, thinking about it again, to such an extreme extent they argue black is white....

e.g if Pro SL collapsed grass roots interest will not flounder and GB semi pros will do better against Australia.

2. I don't think any level headed well mannered person would stoop so low as to let their petty jealousies cloud their judgement

#739 Padge

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:37 AM

No not really.

London produce far more professionals than Halifax.

Halifax draw around 2,000 fans.

I've been in the odd Thrum Hall crowd with several thousand Leeds fans. (geddit?)

CC clubs do well crowd wise when the big away side is down the road.

ANYWAY it's past your bedtime....

Be careful with your argument here, in 91/92 Halifax averaged just over 7,000 and a couple of other seasons around the same time of over 6,000. Against the poor draw teams they could manage 5k, which is pretty reasonable.

Problem was the crowds were success based, success goes, crowds go, crowds go, money goes, club dive bombs.

You have to think about what track record a club has in recent history, I know we are talking 20 years ago but it shows that over time (important phrase) Halifax could show a good return. It certainly wouldn't happen overnight, too many of those 5,000 are probably dead as the average age of an RL supporter 20 years ago was bordering on pensioner..

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#740 The Parksider

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:38 AM

....and could the reason why seven clubs have won it since be due to an equal and equitable sharing of central SKY funds?

Just think how strong all our clubs could be Parky, given a fighting chance.....


I have given that a thought.

14 SL clubs.

24 CC clubs

(here's the bit you won't like)

40 NCL clubs

100 other top amateur clubs with junior sides

Split the SKY money 178 ways and give them all £100K each a season.

(here's something else you won't like)

And watch the best use of the money be made by the amateurs with junior sections who may well spend it on infrastructure, and watch the biggest waste of the money be perpetrated by the CC clubs who will spend it on second rate players wages.

Edited by The Parksider, 08 December 2012 - 12:48 AM.