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Oldham /Salford


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#121 saints10coach

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:40 AM

You mean like the great Oldham teams of the eighties with;

Bruce Clarke (Western Suburbs)
Stuart Raper (Cronulla}
Gary Bridge (Balmain)
Steve Wright (Feltham Rugby Union)
Mark Fairbank (Elland BARLA club)
Gary Warnecke (Wests)
Mal Graham (Wests)
Peter Walsh (Newcastle Knights)
Brian McCarthy (Cantebury Bankstown)
Tom Nadiole (Salford On Loan)
Paul Lowdnes (Warrington On Loan)
Alan McCurrie (Halifax On Loan)
Ian Birkby (York On Loan)
Steve Garner (Fulham On Loan)
Michael Parish (Wakefield On Loan)
John Ogburn (Mansfield Marksmen On Loan)

Need I go on!

Stop making stuff up to suit your argument. McCurrie was signed from Wakefield
Nadiole was of Fijian parentage and spent many seasons at the club
Parrish was signed from Hunslet
of the other English based players you listed I cannot recall them, but if by Garner you are reffering to Gartland, he is an Oldham lad.
In your other argument about Fev not being able to afford SL. You forgot to mention that if they do get in they get around 1 million pounds hand out. Now maybe that is why the Championship clubs look skint to the gravy train boys in SL.

#122 Johnoco

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:06 AM

How about publishing & explaining the rules that will apply to these partnerships thus allowing opinions to be formed on more than assumption, deduction or blind faith. Now that would be truly radical.

What difference would explaining things make? Some people wouldn't believe it anyway and still moan. Its because they enjoy it.

In fact, I'm so fed up of the career moaners that I can't tell the difference between when they have a point or not - its all one big doom fest, always.

And to be honest, it puts me off RL and I feel like sacking it.

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#123 Gav Wilson

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:41 AM

What difference would explaining things make? Some people wouldn't believe it anyway and still moan. Its because they enjoy it.

In fact, I'm so fed up of the career moaners that I can't tell the difference between when they have a point or not - its all one big doom fest, always.

And to be honest, it puts me off RL and I feel like sacking it.


Noooo! Don't turn into one of them! They're like infectious moaning zombies!
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#124 The Parksider

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:47 AM

In your other argument about Fev not being able to afford SL. You forgot to mention that if they do get in they get around 1 million pounds hand out. Now maybe that is why the Championship clubs look skint to the gravy train boys in SL.


Hull.K.R. got the £1.2M a season SKY pay and leaked half a million pounds a year losses on 7,000 crowds.

Cas get 7,000 crowds and £1.2M a season from SKY and can't afford full cap and are still in dire straits.

The clubs you speak of could not even manage the 7,000 crowds......

Why do you and others simply not get it?

CC clubs turn over around £1M SL clubs turn over more than £4M SKY money does not cover the difference.

#125 Dave T

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:17 AM

What difference would explaining things make? Some people wouldn't believe it anyway and still moan. Its because they enjoy it.

In fact, I'm so fed up of the career moaners that I can't tell the difference between when they have a point or not - its all one big doom fest, always.

And to be honest, it puts me off RL and I feel like sacking it.

Aye.

If I'm honest, the only thing keeping me going with RL is next year's World Cup.

I live far enough away that to attend and support the game it takes real effort, both time-wise and financial - and tbh I spend a fair bit of time feeling really rather depressed about the game.

In fact, the most refreshing discussions I have about the sport of Rugby League are from non-RL fans here in Scotland who appear to really appreciate the sport. My most recent experience like this was last weekend, sat in the oldest Inn in Scotland in a tiny village called Kenmore in Perthshire, talking proudly about our sport with a bloke from just outside London and his friend from Fife. It was an entertaining and enjoyable discussion - much unlike most I have with many RL 'fans'.

#126 Marauder

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:20 AM

Hull.K.R. got the £1.2M a season SKY pay and leaked half a million pounds a year losses on 7,000 crowds.

Cas get 7,000 crowds and £1.2M a season from SKY and can't afford full cap and are still in dire straits.

The clubs you speak of could not even manage the 7,000 crowds......

Why do you and others simply not get it?

CC clubs turn over around £1M SL clubs turn over more than £4M SKY money does not cover the difference.

Top and bottom of it is we've got probably 2 or 3 clubs who could afford the full cap without a sugar daddy and probably 5 or 6 has we stand now with, so what is driving the RFL down a road that the sport simply can not afford.

Edited by Marauder, 28 November 2012 - 11:27 AM.

Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#127 The Parksider

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:46 AM

1. Most clubs cant afford to be in SL. I am quite happy my club is independant and not in SL living a lie and running up massive debts like most of SL seem to be doing. SL is not the only thing in Rugby League. Rugby League is about the Semi Pro Clubs, Amateur both heartlands and development , Internationals, Students, Women, kids etc. The game is for me too much obsessed with SL and the disadvantage of other levels of the sport.

2. Rugby League has bad management problems both at club and RFL level. Too many living the dream but not having the means or support for things.

3. Realistically the future doesn't look good for the game in general.


Cut your posts down for expedience, hope that's OK.

1. Your analysis of superleague is spot on, but it's one side of the coin. The other side is what professional RL has done to boost the game. We have 40,000 plus new fans thanks to Superleague, we have tens of millions of pounds worth of TV contracts thanks to Superleague. We have a large player development system thanks to Superleague, we have millionaires prepared to invest in the game thanks to Superleague.

I'm not having a go at you now, you made your stance clear, but it's an utter nonsense to paint Superleague as any sort of failure and people should forget their petty jealousies and try to engage in the realities now. Superleague has done a heck of a lot for the game, and it has probably saved it.

The anti superleague parody has to be "what did the Romans ever do for us"????

Superleague delivers loads of money, loads of fans and loads of home grown pro players

What more do we want from it????

2. Your analysis of bad management is true, as is the effects of it, but to try to declare the whole thing a mess is nonsense. YES Superleague is probably pitched at a level where only half a dozen clubs can compete.

17 years on this should all have been sorted out but of course all the clubs wanted to do was grab what they could for themselves and fail to recognise the greater good and fail to plan for that. I have to dismiss your attack on the RFL which is same old same old, but will heartily agree that SLE and the clubs have failed miserably to look to the greater good, and the same goes for the championship clubs too - they have been just as bad, they just wanted to do what the SL clubs want to do - to just get in SL wether they can afford it or not, and to recreate the old first and division faiilure. Don't give me the "well run" stuff. The well run halifax was a disaster in SL, Well run Leigh bombed in a year, well run Sheffield went defunct and well run Fev can't make a profit in the Championship.

As for Salford and your attack on them if they sign up with Peel they'll do more years in SL than that lot will have managed between them. As for Saints not making it pay? I thought McManus had won an award for doing just that?

SL management by SL has been rather appalling, but they are waking up and smelling the coffee. Bradford and Wakefield are stabilised as will be Salford. Yes Davey O'Connor and Hughes's money is not guaranteed forever but nor is SKY money and as long as it is delivered it should be factored in. It's silly to criticise and dismiss the private money, Super league attracts millionaires, rejoice in it for gawds sake.

The ability to compete has various management mechanisms to create a situation where all clubs can do this, Reduce to 12 clubs, share the surplus SKY money out, use the Championship as part of the player development system, adjust the salary cap etc.

Clubs still have some way to go - no excuse after 17 years - but to dismiss the possibility Wakefield will get Newmarket, to forget that the RFL Odsal deal will help Bradford, to forget London are now bringing through players in numbers, to forget Peel will save Salford for the next decade, to forget O'Connor is rebuilding Widnes to past glories, to forget that even if Davy departs this mortal coin investment goes on at Fartown, To forget if Wakefield and Hull become the only SL clubs in their area they will prosper on this, is to paint such a one sided picture that the value of your post becomes nothing.

We all know the problems you point out, but why ignore the solutions??

Why use such a one sided one-eyed argument to then go on to say.......

3. "the future doesn't look good". The future of the game IS GOOD look at what Superleague has done for us, look at the growth of the game across the country, look at the wonderful Amateur clubs we have in their own facilities.

All these arguments that I do not recognise as being fair, or balanced or factual are coming from Championship supporters grinding big fat axes. Times change, and events conspire to change things.

The future HAS to be viable professional RL clubs - this has already given us so much more in terms of money, fans, players and private investment.

The future HAS to be viable amateur clubs in modern facilities running clubs with players of both sexes and all ages from toddlers to veterans.- I started out playing in 1974 and my word how massively has our amateur game has grown and blossomed since then.

I just do not recognise the black picture you paint.....

But the reality is the dark clouds have descended on the Championship clubs. Today the fans want Pro Rugby, they want SL. The players want to play SL, the investors only want SL. The pro clubs don't need the semi pros.

Leeds don't need Hunslet of Bramley, they need Hunslet Warriors and Stanningley.

The Championship clubs are becoming redundant and they know it, so the only thing to do has been for them to throw in their lot in and be a part of Superleague and help to make it a bigger success rather then sit on the sidelines boo-hooing.

When in Rome, do what the Romans do......

Edited by The Parksider, 28 November 2012 - 11:53 AM.


#128 saints10coach

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:48 AM

Hull.K.R. got the £1.2M a season SKY pay and leaked half a million pounds a year losses on 7,000 crowds.

Cas get 7,000 crowds and £1.2M a season from SKY and can't afford full cap and are still in dire straits.

The clubs you speak of could not even manage the 7,000 crowds......

Why do you and others simply not get it?

CC clubs turn over around £1M SL clubs turn over more than £4M SKY money does not cover the difference.

We do not get it, because there is no promotion. Just because one business cannot manage with 7000 crowds does not mean another cannot manage on less. The teams in the lower divisions do not get 7000 crowds because they do not compete against the other top teams. Given the chance to do so and they might be able to swell their fan base to that level or higher.

#129 Hornetto

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:56 AM

Suit yourselves. Whould you rather fall further behind Champs 1 clubs because you don't have a partnership with a SL club, or is it just because it's the Pinks?

Have you seen the regulations with regards to the number of players Oldham will be able to play from Salford?

Do you think your local players will be swamped with Pinks players and your local team might actually win something?


Oldhamers, mate...

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#130 The Parksider

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:57 AM

We do not get it, because there is no promotion. Just because one business cannot manage with 7000 crowds does not mean another cannot manage on less. The teams in the lower divisions do not get 7000 crowds because they do not compete against the other top teams. Given the chance to do so and they might be able to swell their fan base to that level or higher.


There isn't a club in Superleague that can pay full cap and compete on crowds of less than 8,000 unless they have a rich owner.

There isn't a club in the Championship than has a rich owner or could get 8,000 crowds in Superleague.

The only clubs now managing on less without a rich owner in SL are HKR and Cas who are in dire straits.

Please explain how "good management" can take clubs on 2,000 crowds with no money in the bank, and no rich investor into Superleague and compete.

It has NEVER happened.

#131 1976PMJwires

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:01 PM

Aye.

If I'm honest, the only thing keeping me going with RL is next year's World Cup.

I live far enough away that to attend and support the game it takes real effort, both time-wise and financial - and tbh I spend a fair bit of time feeling really rather depressed about the game.

In fact, the most refreshing discussions I have about the sport of Rugby League are from non-RL fans here in Scotland who appear to really appreciate the sport. My most recent experience like this was last weekend, sat in the oldest Inn in Scotland in a tiny village called Kenmore in Perthshire, talking proudly about our sport with a bloke from just outside London and his friend from Fife. It was an entertaining and enjoyable discussion - much unlike most I have with many RL 'fans'.



DaveT - I had to respond, Gutted you feel depressed about the game and very surprised TBF.

Warrington is enjoying a purple patch, playing some of the best of our life time, great kids coming through and much to appreciate.

Maybe this forum is leaving you depressed, I've kept off posting in recent months as its stale.

I hope your appetite comes back soon.


Best wishes

Paul

#132 roughyedspud

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:04 PM

it could though


£1.2m tv money on the super league squad.....

gate money,sponsorship deals on admin & junior setup


simples..............this super league lark is easy :lol:

OLDHAM RLFC
the 8TH most successful team in british RL


#133 The Parksider

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:06 PM

But it's no longer 'their' club, as they see it. That's the perception, rightly or wrongly. In my opinion the writing's on the wall, the longer this arrangement goes on the more inevitable it is that CC clubs will become out and out feeder clubs. A limit of five DR players is maybe enough for year one but watch that number increase year on year until there's no restriction on numbers. I can understand the disillusionment of these people and it won't be confined to old fogies either.


I understand it too Terry but the game cannot afford to pamper to the disillusioned minority.

The game owes nothing to fans of small championship clubs me included.

It has to move on and attract the fans and players of tomorrow as it has been doing.

There's more mileage in moving on from the past far far more new fans have come into superleague.

The feeder clubs thing is for me a way of boosting Superleague and it;s big clubs whilst leaving the championship fans a club to still support.

There are what? 16,000 championship fans??

If 8,000 walk away but Superleague will be all the stronger for that it will be done.

They have a right to do it. I do not see that I or you have any right to resist it?

#134 The Parksider

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:11 PM

What difference would explaining things make? Some people wouldn't believe it anyway and still moan. Its because they enjoy it.

In fact, I'm so fed up of the career moaners that I can't tell the difference between when they have a point or not


I understand your frustration and I understand Dave T's frustration.

But it's not half as frustrating as seeing the changes to the modern game slowly take away your clubs independence and ambition, and your own dreams for your club.

Yes we have people who grind their axes and argue blacks white to champion a return to better days for them.

Maybe this is why the RFL/SLE is taking a more radical approach now and forcing championship clubs to be part of the future rather than be resistant to it.

#135 The Parksider

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:17 PM

But the coaches of Batley, Dewsbury,York etc are insisting they're not feeder clubs and never will be. Are they kidding themselves?


They are doing what everyone in the game does now - spouting PR rubbish.

Only Barry Eaton was man enough to come out and let the people know he was happy for Hunslet to be part of Leeds and happy to be coaching in such a set up.

The rest of them dare not say that because it may upset their fans. Perhaps Barry came clean because we have no fans to upset?

Feeder club is however a stupid term.

If I want to see a feeder club in Leeds i go to Warriors, Stanningley, Queens, Easts and Milford.

The correct term is "A" team.

#136 1976PMJwires

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:18 PM

There isn't a club in Superleague that can pay full cap and compete on crowds of less than 8,000 unless they have a rich owner.

There isn't a club in the Championship than has a rich owner or could get 8,000 crowds in Superleague.

The only clubs now managing on less without a rich owner in SL are HKR and Cas who are in dire straits.

Please explain how "good management" can take clubs on 2,000 crowds with no money in the bank, and no rich investor into Superleague and compete.

It has NEVER happened.



I wish you stop banging on about 7000 or 8000 gates

Why do i say this????

All clubs have kids going through the turnstyles, so the figure you openly talk about need clarifying IMHO

Warrington have over 1000 kids for example, that figure is part of the gate!!!

£60 season ticket for kids 60K ...... but a 1000 adults at £175 = 175K big difference in turnover (in fact could pay 3 players wages)

#137 The Parksider

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:24 PM

I wish you stop banging on about 7000 or 8000 gates


I'll "bang on" about 7,000, 8,000 or 10,000 gates as long as people "bang on" about how their championship club on 1,000, 1,500 or 2,000 gates can suddenly become an SL club just because SKY give them £1M.

I''m gonna "bang on" with no regrets and i'll probably "bang on" even more now just to upset you :D

#138 Northern Sol

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:38 PM

Only Barry Eaton was man enough to come out and let the people know he was happy for Hunslet to be part of Leeds and happy to be coaching in such a set up.

The rest of them dare not say that because it may upset their fans. Perhaps Barry came clean because we have no fans to upset?


I think he's just a very uncomplicated person who just says it how it is.

#139 Ackroman

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:40 PM

They are doing what everyone in the game does now - spouting PR rubbish.

Only Barry Eaton was man enough to come out and let the people know he was happy for Hunslet to be part of Leeds and happy to be coaching in such a set up.

The rest of them dare not say that because it may upset their fans. Perhaps Barry came clean because we have no fans to upset?

Feeder club is however a stupid term.

If I want to see a feeder club in Leeds i go to Warriors, Stanningley, Queens, Easts and Milford.

The correct term is "A" team.


I'm sorry but generally speaking conspiracy theorists need evidence to prove there's at least some collusion.

You have no evidence to prove any of the above rubbish and repeating the same thing time and again does not make it true!!

"A teams"! You are an utter fool on the wind up. You know you have a captive audience for this bulls h it but it doesn't make it true.

The only fact is that throughout time, in most if not all professional sports in this country, the bigger, richer clubs could afford the better players. Also sometimes these clubs have loaned out players to lower league clubs who often rely on these players to improve their rostas. Sometimes on a week by week basis, sometimes for a season.

What exactly is different now? What evidence is there that the current set up is creating a relationship between teams that hasn't already existed?

Why is it that you ignore the possibility that by removing academies we should see an overall increase in playing standards across all divisions?

Why is it that you can't extrapolate this idea to see better relationships between semi pro and amateur teams?

Instead why don't you carry on prodding what is already an open sore regarding the differences in funding, and continue making accusations about collusion between administrators, coaches, club owners and players without evidence. Also why don't you carry on miss quoting these very same people to satisfy your own needs.

This obsession with playing thread tennis to derail the real arguments is why people switch off.

#140 saints10coach

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:43 PM

I'll "bang on" about 7,000, 8,000 or 10,000 gates as long as people "bang on" about how their championship club on 1,000, 1,500 or 2,000 gates can suddenly become an SL club just because SKY give them £1M.

I''m gonna "bang on" with no regrets and i'll probably "bang on" even more now just to upset you :D

Its not long ago before Widnes were granted access to SL, that they were getting crowds of that level. One season of losing Rugby, but against better teams has seen their crowds increase to just under 6000. I am sure that a few more seasons at this level and maybe a few more wins and their gates will increase even more.
The only thing that would make you realise the Championship clubs are just as strong as the SL clubs. Would be a season or two without any Sky money being given out. Then we would see who the strong clubs really are.




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