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The older, wealthier generation and alcohol!


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#41 hindle xiii

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:57 PM

Can someone re-open the TRL Bar please?

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#42 gingerjon

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:08 PM

On breakfast TV this morning, both channels had an alcohol-abuse expert who was forced to grudgingly admit that alcohol sales went down last year.


After about ten years of going up the number of deaths from booze and the amount drunk on average fell very slightly in the last year figures are available for.

The number of admissions to hospital in England increased to over 1,000,000, as did the number of incidences of alcohol related liver disease (and other alcohol related conditions).

(NHS has all this, as does the Home Office)
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#43 Saint Billinge

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:39 PM

Can someone re-open the TRL Bar please?


Now that John Drake is head barman! :D

#44 JohnM

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:43 PM

If you want to stop people dying of liver disease or reduce alcohol-fueled crime what are your alternatives?

Bearing in mind your tax dollars pay to clean up the mess.


I'm not a tax exile. I pay my taxes in Sterling :)

There was a guy from something like The British Liver Trust ( i think) who was certain that this measure would save 1000 lives a year. Before devising a solution, I'd need to see the evidence. That is, the evidence of "pre-loading" with cheap alcohol, the evidince that pricing this way would have the claimed effect etc. One of the key pieces of research can be found here: http://www.sheffield.ac.uk/polopoly_fs/1.150021!/file/scotlandupdatejan2012.pdf

It is an in depth statistical analysis that comes up with very firm conclusions. However, it is also just that an exercise in statistical research. Nowhere, unless I have missed it, are there any interviews with real people, or with suppliers, or with victims. It is almost looks as though the researchers never left the University.

or , according to the BBC website, Correction 28 September 2012: The main figure in this story has been amended from 50,000 to 11,500 after it emerged that there had been an error in the calculations carried out for Panorama by the School of Health and Related Research at the University of Sheffield.

#45 Ex-Kirkholt

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:53 PM

After about ten years of going up the number of deaths from booze and the amount drunk on average fell very slightly in the last year figures are available for.

The number of admissions to hospital in England increased to over 1,000,000, as did the number of incidences of alcohol related liver disease (and other alcohol related conditions).

(NHS has all this, as does the Home Office)

Not arguing with the figures, but there will always be a "lag-time" with something like this.


Even if this change is successful, with long term liver damage / alcoholism, the results won't be seen for years.

Figures on Anti-social behaviour / alcohol based admissions to A & E might give some early pointers though.

If as Gingerjon says, figures have started to fall, it will be hard to assess the impact that pricing has.
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#46 Severus

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:09 PM

indeed I do, consenting adults and all that. I hate bloody liberals

You calling Cameron and co liberals?
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#47 Phil

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:14 PM

You calling Cameron and co liberals?


Nope, in this instance I'm calling out all the middle class liberals who want to free us poor workers from the vices that afflict us. Cameron and co can, in the words of the local chavs "go and do one"
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#48 Severus

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:16 PM

Nope, in this instance I'm calling out all the middle class liberals who want to free us poor workers from the vices that afflict us. Cameron and co can, in the words of the local chavs "go and do one"

You've got a strange view on liberals.
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#49 Phil

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:20 PM

You've got a strange view on liberals.


Care to expand on that?
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#50 Just Browny

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:43 PM

GJ will have a different view when they put up the price of lattes.

I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.


#51 Methven Hornet

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:11 PM

Government are proposing a minimum price for a unit of alcohol, which would include targeting the older, wealthier generation who it seems are drinking more. I cannot get my head around the fact that this would have little impact on those with a healthy bank balance! Would crime go up in order to fund the buying of alcohol, just like it does to obtain drugs?

If the levels do go down then it could cut hospital admissions but then possibly see more pubs closed that is happening on an alarming rate, with some saying it would be a small price to pay. As always, the more moderate drinkers would be penalised. For me, I have my doubts that putting up prices will drastically cut the reliance on alcohol, either through addiction or socialising in excess.


I'm not really sure why you are singling out the older, wealthier generation as being the target for this legislation. Surely your point that it would have little effect on relatively wealthier people suggests that they are not the ones being targeted. If the minimum for a bottle of wine under the Westminster government's proposals is going to be £4.22 (a figure I have seen), is that really going to discourage this demographic group from excessive drinking; especially when older people, probably with more disposable income (and a more discerning palate, perhaps?) might go for more 'upmarket' products.

Surely the proposals are aimed at the cheaper end of the market, where you can get really cheap lagers and ciders for just a few pence.
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#52 Johnoco

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:47 PM

Suppose a minimum price was set, where does the extra revenue generated go? If to the NHS, will there be a reduction in NI payments?

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#53 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:48 PM

Suppose a minimum price was set, where does the extra revenue generated go? If to the NHS, will there be a reduction in NI payments?

Straight to the brewers,it's a minimum price ,not a tax.
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#54 Johnoco

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:53 PM

Straight to the brewers,it's a minimum price ,not a tax.


Hmmm. Sounds unworkable already.
But still, the gov't will get more taxes won't they? Hence reduced NI or Income Tax maybe???

Edited by Johnoco, 28 November 2012 - 07:55 PM.

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#55 Methven Hornet

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:00 PM

Straight to the brewers,it's a minimum price ,not a tax.


To the retailers, surely? It's a minimum retail price rather than wholesale (I think :unsure: ).

The idea, however, is that the minimum price will reduce demand for cheap alcohol, so the increased margins the retailers will receive should be offset by the reduction in the volume of sales.
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#56 Methven Hornet

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:39 PM

One possible obstacle to this whole approach is legal challenge. The Scottish Government has passed legislation to introduce a minimum price of 50p a unit, but its implementation has been delayed until April next year because of legal challenges. The Scotch Whisky Association has asked for a judicial review in the Court of Session in Edinburgh, arguing that the measure contravenes the Act of Union's clauses on trade within the union. There is also the task of persuading the European Commission that the legislation doesn't break EU law. The UK government is supporting the Holyrood administration in this and, as they want to introduce similar legislation for England and Wales, would probably help overcome any UK legal blocks.

One interesting point about the Scottish legislation is that it has a sunset clause - inserted at the request of the Scottish Conservatives - that will see the legislation cease at the end of a six year period if it has not been successful.
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#57 Student Ram

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:53 PM

I'm not sure whether minimum pricing will have that much affect or not. I work in A&E, alcohol related problems provide a really large part of the work we see. I don't have the figures to hand, however the impact is wide ranging.

There is the obvious stuff - night time violence in town usually get some most nights, not just related to weekends. Most major trauma out of hours has an alcohol component - road traffic stuff, long falls from houses/bridges/flats/down stairs. Young folks getting so drunk they can't get home.
Attendances due to the effect of alcohol on mental health - large number of self harm episodes are precipitated by alcohol - far bigger effect than any other recreational drug, peoples reliance on alcohol as a coping mechanism for dealing with the issues in their lives, the fact that alcohol brings out the extremes of personality disorders/psychiatric disease
Medical problems related to alcohol ingestion - liver cirrhosis, pancreatitis, gastrointestinal bleeding, seizures related to alcohol withdrawal, the general poor health status of those addicted to alcohol - increased bleeding risk, poor nutrition/immune systems etc etc

It's often simply talked about in the sense of fighting and city centre violence but what we actually see is an effect that is much wider than this and involving more systems than say obesity or smoking. We've recently had the cameras in at work looking at the effect of recreational drug use on the department - they struggled to find that many cases - alcohol related stuff - half the department most nights.

Really not sure that education will have an effect for many of the folks we see so maybe the politicians feel this is their only alternative. I don't know what the answer is, only that it would be nice to find one somehow.
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#58 Methven Hornet

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:19 PM

I'm not sure whether minimum pricing will have that much affect or not. I work in A&E, alcohol related problems provide a really large part of the work we see. I don't have the figures to hand, however the impact is wide ranging.

There is the obvious stuff - night time violence in town usually get some most nights, not just related to weekends. Most major trauma out of hours has an alcohol component - road traffic stuff, long falls from houses/bridges/flats/down stairs. Young folks getting so drunk they can't get home.
Attendances due to the effect of alcohol on mental health - large number of self harm episodes are precipitated by alcohol - far bigger effect than any other recreational drug, peoples reliance on alcohol as a coping mechanism for dealing with the issues in their lives, the fact that alcohol brings out the extremes of personality disorders/psychiatric disease
Medical problems related to alcohol ingestion - liver cirrhosis, pancreatitis, gastrointestinal bleeding, seizures related to alcohol withdrawal, the general poor health status of those addicted to alcohol - increased bleeding risk, poor nutrition/immune systems etc etc

It's often simply talked about in the sense of fighting and city centre violence but what we actually see is an effect that is much wider than this and involving more systems than say obesity or smoking. We've recently had the cameras in at work looking at the effect of recreational drug use on the department - they struggled to find that many cases - alcohol related stuff - half the department most nights.

Really not sure that education will have an effect for many of the folks we see so maybe the politicians feel this is their only alternative. I don't know what the answer is, only that it would be nice to find one somehow.


I don't think that minimum pricing on its own is a solution, but I think it is just one of a few measure that could help. What it could help in is the specific problem of young people getting well-oiled before going out, or drinking becoming part of the normal routine of people at home. Part of the evidence used to justify the introduction was the observation that people tend to drink more responsibly in licensed premises.
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#59 shrek

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:42 PM

I'm not really sure why you are singling out the older, wealthier generation as being the target for this legislation. Surely your point that it would have little effect on relatively wealthier people suggests that they are not the ones being targeted. If the minimum for a bottle of wine under the Westminster government's proposals is going to be £4.22 (a figure I have seen), is that really going to discourage this demographic group from excessive drinking; especially when older people, probably with more disposable income (and a more discerning palate, perhaps?) might go for more 'upmarket' products.

Surely the proposals are aimed at the cheaper end of the market, where you can get really cheap lagers and ciders for just a few pence.

There was a piece a while back on the radio breaking down the cost of wine, they used a £4.99 bottle as an example, and after tax, shipping, profits for all involved etc the actual cost of the wine inside the bottle was 50p, point being that even if you "splash out" and go for a £6.99 bottle its a massive jump in quality. Having a poor palette and no knowledge I now use this as my guide!

On the actual plan, without knowing what the average cost per unit is now, not sure I can really gauge how much of an impact its going to have, can see more arguments in favour of the plan than against on the face value of it though.

Edited by shrek, 28 November 2012 - 10:43 PM.


#60 Johnoco

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:46 PM

Comparing 'drug' use to alcohol is a red herring. Of course there will be less cases, not that many people actually take drugs in reality. I know a lot do but the number in comparison to drink will be very small.
If the same amount of people that drink, took drugs then we might get a fair comparison. But then, I doubt we'd have a functioning society.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together





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