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Conferences or SL1 SL2. Scottish football seizes the initiative.


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#21 Mumby Magic

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:50 PM

Quick question why do we need conferences at the top level?

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#22 Johnoco

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:53 PM

Now they've won their tax case - not all that much, actually. They probably didn't need to go bust.


You know what I mean. Besides, it ain't over yet HMRC are challenging the ruling.

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#23 keighley

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:45 PM

Why not have one big league - just don't play every other team home and away. ;)


Well. you think you are being droll but that is one solution to the problem. The NRL currently solve the 'too big' problem of their league by not having all the teams play all the other teams but still all coming under the one large league table.

For over 50 years RL in this country the league was split into Lancashire leagues and Yorkshire leagues each with their own league table and the clubs played half a dozen cross county or cross league fixtures and the Yorks plus Lancs results were added to the cross county results to produce the one big Rugby League table. That was the original reason for the top four playoffs because some teams might be at the top having played an easier schedule than others.

#24 Johnoco

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:49 PM

Its nearly Xmas and time to get a present for 'er indoors. What would Richard Branson get his Mrs? What would Rod Stewart get his?

Both as valid and pointless as comparing RL with gridiron.

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#25 keighley

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:55 PM

Its nearly Xmas and time to get a present for 'er indoors. What would Richard Branson get his Mrs? What would Rod Stewart get his?

Both as valid and pointless as comparing RL with gridiron.


Well, don't then. I will if I think there are various ideas and strategies which have suceeded for them which might be able to transferred to RL for it's benefits.

The analogy you more rightly use to make any sense is how does Rob Stewart run his business as compared to how Richard Branson runs his and can one of then benefit from any unique business strategies of the other,

#26 keighley

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:58 PM

Quick question why do we need conferences at the top level?


Quick answer. To boraden the base of the top league to enable more teams to compete at that level without losing incumbebt SL teams in the process.

#27 Johnoco

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:00 PM

Well, don't then. I will if I think there are various ideas and strategies which have suceeded for them which might be able to transferred to RL for it's benefits.

The analogy you more rightly use to make any sense is how does Rob Stewart run his business as compared to how Richard Branson runs his and can one of then benefit from any unique business strategies of the other,


Correct they both might get business advice from, or for each other. It is of no use to me though and I wouldn't use what works for them to run my affairs.

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Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

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#28 keighley

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:06 PM

Correct they both might get business advice from, or for each other. It is of no use to me though and I wouldn't use what works for them to run my affairs.


Well, maybe not, but what works for them might work for the Company you work for where the company represent the RFL and you represent a member club.

#29 Mumby Magic

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:14 PM

Quick answer. To boraden the base of the top league to enable more teams to compete at that level without losing incumbebt SL teams in the process.


Fair answer but doen't this water down the the top level league.

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#30 keighley

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:25 PM

Fair answer but doen't this water down the the top level league.


I would think it would to some degree. The hope is, that if clubs would have to meet minimum standards to get in they would quickly improve their standards, especially, if, having been given a place at the top table, they can then find some extra sources of funding. Some of the inter league cup ties would suggest that some of the CC teams could step up to SL level quite quickly.

#31 The Parksider

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:50 PM

The hope is, that if clubs would have to meet minimum standards to get in they would quickly improve their standards, especially, if, having been given a place at the top table, they can then find some extra sources of funding.


So the way conferences will be funded is on the hope that by imposing extra standards on a club they will find money they don't actually have?

But wait - with a place possible in the conferences some rich man will be enthused, even though too few rich men are enthused anyway even when SL clubs are up for grabs?

#32 Methven Hornet

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:52 PM

I see the NCL as the equivalents to the SJFA ... I think we can make this work ...


What, without the minimum standards? Have you seen some of the SJFA grounds? Have you seen some of the senior non-league grounds?
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#33 Methven Hornet

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:54 PM

Now they've won their tax case - not all that much, actually. They probably didn't need to go bust.


They've not won it yet. Announced today that HMRC are to appeal.
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#34 Methven Hornet

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:18 PM

Certainly one of the reasons thay have conferences in the USA is the size of the country. The other point about them is that you can get more clubs in the league.

One of the problems with p and r is the fate of the relegated team and the fact that they might destroy years of positive progress because of one bad season on the field.

The beauty of conferences or dual leagues is that you can add to the league without removing anybody. If the divisions get too big then you split into three conferences instead of two.

Thus in RL , given they meet the criteria, Leigh, Featherstone, Halifax, Sheffield, Toulouse or down the road a Cumbrian franchise or a midlands team or a Welsh team could be admitted to SL and there is no need to remove any of the existing teams. Just thinking off the cuff without really checking the numbers you could have an Eastern Division, a Western Division and a Southern/French/ Welsh division.

I think that is what they are looking at for the Scottish League plus there is a suggestion that they might do some form of revenue sharing so you don't get the huge disparity between Celtic, previously Rangers, and the rest of the league.

I think parity is good. For instance, if revenue sharing enabled Salford to seriously compete with Wigan, Saints and the other big boys, a Salford V Wigan fixture with a top two place at stake should sell out Salford City Stadium and get a large TV audience rather then the mediocrity of that fixture as of now.Everybody, including Wigan who had initially had to share a little wealth , would benefit. The reverse fixture at DW should pull in 18 to 20 thousand instead of 14 .

I don't know how the Scottish League intend to finance this expansion of their top division. That will be the critical element and has always been the main stumbling block to any such exspansionary schemes in RL.

I just thought it was interesting that a league, which in many ways mirrors RL, in that it has a few huge teams, some middle level teams and some wannabes is looking to implement an expanded dual league system. It will be interesting to see how it works out.


I'm a little confused, both by the title of the thread and your posts. Are you under the impression that the Scottish Premier League are considering regional conferences? They are definitely not.

The proposal that the twelve SPL clubs have voted on, in principle, and which still has to be sold to both the Scottish FA and the Scottish Football League, is that there will be two divisions of twelve in the SPL, that is, SPL1 and SPL2. These teams will play each other twice, giving 22 games. The top eight in SPL1 would then go into a league to play off for the SPL title - a further 14 games giving a total for the season of 36. The bottom four would join the top four of SPL2 in a league to decide who joins next seasons SPL1, the top four from this league winning that honour. The bottom eight would play in their own championship for the rest of the season, and this would decide the relegation places for the drop to the Scottish Football League.

Any regionalisation would come below the SPL level, either in the SFL or a re-organised 'non-league' level.

As someone said, Scotland is too small for its top level football to be regionalised, and conferences, especially involving 24 clubs, would be unworkable anyway. There aren't 24 full-time clubs in Scotland, it would be reckless in the extreme to even try and sustain that many - just as it would be to attempt to have a 20 team Super League based mainly upon the M62 - and a conference that would potentially see Celtic play Alloa in a league fixture does not sound like a solution to Scotland's footballing woes.
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#35 Dave T

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:15 AM

The structure they have suggested with the split into three is almost identical to my proposal for SL on the two divisions of ten thread a short while back.

#36 Ackroman

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:42 PM

Fair answer but doen't this water down the the top level league.


This is an interesting argument. Have all the imports in SL squads improved our better players? If so would having less skillful domestic players in the league make our better players worse?

Would it make the league less competitive than it is now?

Less exciting?

Does the system in place now assume that the Championships have no SL level talent?

If Championship clubs are tasked with developing SL talent shouldn't they have somewhere to play?

I think the way the Scottish system works as described above has a lot of merits in improving standards at the right levels in our sport too.

Edited by Ackroman, 05 December 2012 - 12:44 PM.


#37 keighley

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:57 PM

So the way conferences will be funded is on the hope that by imposing extra standards on a club they will find money they don't actually have?

But wait - with a place possible in the conferences some rich man will be enthused, even though too few rich men are enthused anyway even when SL clubs are up for grabs?


Check my original post. Did I or did I not say that the problem a two league system comes up against always is where is the money coming from and i don't have the answer. Equally though SL dosn't have the answer either that's why so many of it's clubs are in financial trouble. Would you care to give us your solution to that other then to contract to a too small to suceed rump competition.?

#38 keighley

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:22 PM

I'm a little confused, both by the title of the thread and your posts. Are you under the impression that the Scottish Premier League are considering regional conferences? They are definitely not.

The proposal that the twelve SPL clubs have voted on, in principle, and which still has to be sold to both the Scottish FA and the Scottish Football League, is that there will be two divisions of twelve in the SPL, that is, SPL1 and SPL2. These teams will play each other twice, giving 22 games. The top eight in SPL1 would then go into a league to play off for the SPL title - a further 14 games giving a total for the season of 36. The bottom four would join the top four of SPL2 in a league to decide who joins next seasons SPL1, the top four from this league winning that honour. The bottom eight would play in their own championship for the rest of the season, and this would decide the relegation places for the drop to the Scottish Football League.

Any regionalisation would come below the SPL level, either in the SFL or a re-organised 'non-league' level.

As someone said, Scotland is too small for its top level football to be regionalised, and conferences, especially involving 24 clubs, would be unworkable anyway. There aren't 24 full-time clubs in Scotland, it would be reckless in the extreme to even try and sustain that many - just as it would be to attempt to have a 20 team Super League based mainly upon the M62 - and a conference that would potentially see Celtic play Alloa in a league fixture does not sound like a solution to Scotland's footballing woes.


Conferences can be regionalised or not. It's up to the league running them In the States, because of the size of the country as has been said, regionalisation works because it cuts down on travelling costs and creates derbies. I think this model would work well in RL with the historical and geographical split of east and West and maybe, in the future South/France/ Wales? Midlands perhaps. This both creates money from bigger derby crowds and saves money on travel, hotels etc for the players.

In Scotland, obviously, they have decided not to regionalise but they will, if it comes to pass, create two conferences of 12 teams. Whether that is ustainable or not is not for me to say. The SPL must think it is.

I think one of the pluses of conference systems is that they are not constrained by numbers if the financing is there. In RL for instance we might find that there are only 4 teams capable of moving up to a conferenced SL. Lets say, for the sake of argument, Featherstone, Halifax, Toulouse and Leigh. That would be two conferences of 9 teams.

If down the road, other teams step up to the plate, Sheffield say or Doncaster or Crusaders or Coventry, then we can add them to the system without missing a beat. If the numbers of teams got two unwieldy for a two conference system ( Oh how I wish) then you merely split into three conferences.

Now I am only speculating. I don't for one minute suggest that 90% of those teams I mentioned can step up, so I don't need turnover and crowd rants from the usual suspects. It just an idea, which has proved successful elsewhere and a variation of which the SPL are looking at.

I think RL has a dilemma in how to grow SL but not reject any current teams and that is one way it could be done. Finance is not currently available to implement such plans in RL. It will be interesting to see how the Scots manage the financing.

#39 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:04 PM

There isn't enough money in the game to sustain more clubs at the top flight. Simple as.

We've only just expanded the league, and there are questions as to whether that is too much as it is.
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#40 LeeF

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:26 PM

So they're completely restructuring the league setup to get Rangers back to the top?

Yes but the only reason they can restructure is because Rangers imploded thereby fundamentally changing the balance of power in Scottish football where before if Celtic and Rangers didn't want something to happen they would veto it due to the voting structure




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