Jump to content


Rugby League World Issue 402

Try our Fantastic 5-Issue Bundle Offer! For just £18, a saving of 10% on the regular cover price, you’ll get:
The Play-offs Issue - pictured (out 12 Sept) – Covering the climax of the Super League & Championship seasons
The Grand Finals Issue (out 17 Oct) – Grand Final excitement from both sides of the world plus Four Nations preview
The Four Nations Issue (out 21 Nov) – Fantastic coverage of the Four Nations tournament down under
The Golden Boot Issue (out 19 Dec) – A look back at the 2014 season plus the big reveal of the winner of the Golden Boot
The 2015 Season Preview Issue (out 23 Jan) – How will your team perform in 2015? We preview every club.


League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

Enabling Closer games as opposed to tryfest blowouts


  • Please log in to reply
108 replies to this topic

#41 JohnM

JohnM
  • Coach
  • 20,044 posts

Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:45 AM

Noteworty is that there are not many scores over 50 points and only one I counted over 60. There have been many of those this year.


May I suggrst that it is for you to try to justify your assertion. Your words above imply that you have the facts at your fingertips.

#42 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 19,982 posts

Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:18 AM

Erm - not really. Those are scores are for both divisions over the whole season. Noteworty is that there are not many scores over 50 points and only one I counted over 60. There have been many of those this year. I wonder if Padge would be kind enough to all post score margins for last season for all three divisions using the same margin discriminator?

Give over. You implied (not for the first time) that modern RL was responsible for one sided blowouts. We can see it isn't yet you're now trying to move the criteria.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#43 Ant

Ant
  • Coach
  • 3,146 posts

Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:34 AM

We're they under the "new" 4 point try scoring?

And they were definately played in winter on poor grounds to keep the score down...

Blowout scores are nothing new in the slightest, but I'd say any game these days with a winning margin of less than 10 has been a very tight encounter - and even those that werent that close tended to blow out in the last 5 mins

#44 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 18,081 posts

Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:30 AM

Erm - not really. Those are scores are for both divisions over the whole season. Noteworty is that there are not many scores over 50 points and only one I counted over 60. There have been many of those this year. I wonder if Padge would be kind enough to all post score margins for last season for all three divisions using the same margin discriminator?

If you don't have the figures to back up your argument then how did you reach your conclusion?

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#45 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 18,081 posts

Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:33 AM

We're they under the "new" 4 point try scoring?


Yes.

And they were definately played in winter on poor grounds to keep the score down...

Blowout scores are nothing new in the slightest, but I'd say any game these days with a winning margin of less than 10 has been a very tight encounter - and even those that werent that close tended to blow out in the last 5 mins


Exactly

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#46 Rob

Rob
  • Coach
  • 508 posts

Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:32 AM

This should be an easy argument to solve. Can't some statto somewhere calculate the average winning margin in each division, in each year, and then we see if there are more blowouts in the modern game or not.

#47 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 18,081 posts

Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:53 AM

This should be an easy argument to solve. Can't some statto somewhere calculate the average winning margin in each division, in each year, and then we see if there are more blowouts in the modern game or not.

No need, Lobby says it was very rare, that's his argument, its been shown they were not rare in the past, that's the end of his argument. He is though slowly doing his usual thing of adjusting his opening argument now that he has been shown to be completely wrong.

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#48 dhw

dhw
  • Coach
  • 666 posts

Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:05 PM

Absolute hogwash!


Pace and power have become much more dominant though that much he is right about.


#49 dhw

dhw
  • Coach
  • 666 posts

Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:11 PM

No need, Lobby says it was very rare, that's his argument, its been shown they were not rare in the past, that's the end of his argument. He is though slowly doing his usual thing of adjusting his opening argument now that he has been shown to be completely wrong.


But the evidence on both sides of the argument has been anecdotal. There has been no real analysis of blowout scores (definition of a blowout has not even been defined) how often they occur. There have also been assertions like that a 10 point winning is a close game which is complete nonsense because the only data you have is the end score. Also the assertion that blowout scores occur in the last last 10 minutes which is also unsupported and in general untrue.

#50 EdinburghExile

EdinburghExile
  • Coach
  • 572 posts

Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:38 PM

This should be an easy argument to solve. Can't some statto somewhere calculate the average winning margin in each division, in each year, and then we see if there are more blowouts in the modern game or not.


If I've got a spare half hour on Sunday I will do. Watch this space.

#51 HKR AWAY DAYS

HKR AWAY DAYS
  • Coach
  • 1,374 posts

Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:54 PM

Very few games these days are within less than a converted try.


Rovers lost 16 games last season, 9 of which were decided by a no more than a converted try. :)

#52 HappyDave

HappyDave
  • Coach
  • 3,236 posts

Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:43 PM

Pace and power have become much more dominant though that much he is right about.


Pace, power, fitness and skill. What's wrong with that? Powerful Forwards and skillful Backs.

I agree with the Aussies there are too many interchanges for professionals, 8 - 10 interchanges is just about right, but not for amateurs, keep rolling subs. Although if an amateur team travels with 13 - 14 players then know they have to have the fitness, mental toughness and determination to play the full 80.
"I've never seen a woman with hairy ears... And I've been to St Helens" - John Bishop

#53 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 18,081 posts

Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:51 PM

Rovers lost 16 games last season, 9 of which were decided by a no more than a converted try. :)

Not as high as your nine but in 2011 Wigan were involved in 3 draws and 5 other games with one converted try or less difference. Saints also drew 3 games that season (one was a Wigan game) effectively meaning those two teams were involved in 5 draws between them.
.

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#54 Cake Tiger

Cake Tiger
  • Coach
  • 724 posts

Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:23 PM

Not as high as your nine but in 2011 Wigan were involved in 3 draws and 5 other games with one converted try or less difference. .
.


So that's 8 out of 27 (not sure if you have included cup or playoff games). Less than a third - that doesn't sound that many to me.

#55 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 18,081 posts

Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:28 PM

So that's 8 out of 27 (not sure if you have included cup or playoff games). Less than a third - that doesn't sound that many to me.

All games were SL clubs were involved.

For something that is supposedly very rare these days thats' a lot of close games and especially a lot of draws, I didn't count what Saints had in the way of 6 point or less games but I think it was around 2 or 3.

Care to go and find the stats that show that this is any different to the past.in 93/94 Wigan were involved in 6 games that were 6 pts difference or less, one of those though was abandoned after 13mins because of fog. Saints were involved in 4 such games. And significantly more games played. A small sample but as a quick view significant.

Edited by Padge, 06 December 2012 - 11:49 PM.


Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#56 brooza

brooza
  • Moderator
  • 4,353 posts

Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:09 AM

Erm - not really. Those are scores are for both divisions over the whole season. Noteworty is that there are not many scores over 50 points and only one I counted over 60. There have been many of those this year. I wonder if Padge would be kind enough to all post score margins for last season for all three divisions using the same margin discriminator?

But I thought anything over 6 points was a blowout
St Albans Centurions 1st Team Manager. Former Medway Dragons Wheelchair RL player.

Leeds Rhinos, St Albans Centurions y Griffons Madrid fan. Also follow (to a lesser extent) Catalans Dragons, London Broncos, South Sydney Rabbitohs, Jacksonville Axemen, Vrchlabi Mad Squirrels, København Black Swans, Red Star Belgrade and North Hertfordshire Crusaders.

Moderator of the International board

#57 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 18,081 posts

Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:29 AM

But the evidence on both sides of the argument has been anecdotal. There has been no real analysis of blowout scores (definition of a blowout has not even been defined) how often they occur. There have also been assertions like that a 10 point winning is a close game which is complete nonsense because the only data you have is the end score. Also the assertion that blowout scores occur in the last last 10 minutes which is also unsupported and in general untrue.

Lobby defined a blow out as anything with a score difference of more than 1 converted try. Having been blown out of the water by post 39 he tries (his usual trick) of completely changing his stance to match the data presented and redefines a blow out as one team scoring more than 50.

There is nothing anecdotal about the results I posted, straight from the record books, Lobby has been asked how he came to his conclusion and could he back it up with something other than his anecdotal evidence. Thus far he has failed (yet again) miserably to provide one single shred of evidence to back up his assertion.

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#58 Lobbygobbler

Lobbygobbler
  • Coach
  • 5,797 posts

Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:36 PM

Lobby defined a blow out as anything with a score difference of more than 1 converted try. Having been blown out of the water by post 39 he tries (his usual trick) of completely changing his stance to match the data presented and redefines a blow out as one team scoring more than 50.

There is nothing anecdotal about the results I posted, straight from the record books, Lobby has been asked how he came to his conclusion and could he back it up with something other than his anecdotal evidence. Thus far he has failed (yet again) miserably to provide one single shred of evidence to back up his assertion.


Look at the score margins here. This is just SL as well. The scores you posted (approx half of them) were also for div 2, and the cups, so there werent many same league blowouts in 1983/84. Contrastingly there were a whopping 21 SL games were the winning team got 50 pts or more! And 7 matches were the winning team got 60 pts or more. Compare that with div 1 results only in 1983/84

http://news.bbc.co.u...lts/6484501.stm

All I want to see is closer games

Edited by Lobbygobbler, 07 December 2012 - 06:09 PM.


#59 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 18,081 posts

Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:28 PM

Look at the score margins here. This is just SL as well. The scores you posted (approx half of them) were also for div 2, and the cups, so there werent many same league blowouts in 1983/84. Contrastingly there were a whopping 21 SL games were the winning team got 50 pts or more! And 7 matches were the winning team got 60 pts or more. Compare that with div 1 results only in 1983/84

http://news.bbc.co.u...lts/6484501.stm

All I want to see is closer games

You said blow its didn't use to happen (or were extremely rare)

Look at these score here, all first division clashes.


Castleford 42 Bradford 12
Castleford 42 Wakefield 12
Castleford 16 Leeds 41
Castleford 76 Rochdale 12
Featherstone 54 Barrow 16
Hull 40 Featherstone 22
Hull KR 42 Oldham 14
Hull KR 48 Rochdale 14
Hull KR 16 Sheffield 62
Leeds 64 Rochdale 4
Leeds 52 Featherstone 20
Leeds 41 Castleford 16
Rochdale 4 Wigan 44
Rochdale 20 Widnes 44
Rochdale 0 Castleford 42
Saints 62 Warrington 16
Saints 42 Hull KR 10
Saints 44 Rochdale 14
Saints 54 Featherstone 38
Eagles 4 Wigan 46
Wakefield 42 Rochdale 6
Widnes 41 Featherstone 14
Widnes 60 Rochdale 6
Widnes 46 Castleford 4
Widnes 42 Featherstone 28

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#60 Lobbygobbler

Lobbygobbler
  • Coach
  • 5,797 posts

Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:52 PM

You said blow its didn't use to happen (or were extremely rare)

Look at these score here, all first division clashes.


Castleford 42 Bradford 12
Castleford 42 Wakefield 12
Castleford 16 Leeds 41
Castleford 76 Rochdale 12
Featherstone 54 Barrow 16
Hull 40 Featherstone 22
Hull KR 42 Oldham 14
Hull KR 48 Rochdale 14
Hull KR 16 Sheffield 62
Leeds 64 Rochdale 4
Leeds 52 Featherstone 20
Leeds 41 Castleford 16
Rochdale 4 Wigan 44
Rochdale 20 Widnes 44
Rochdale 0 Castleford 42
Saints 62 Warrington 16
Saints 42 Hull KR 10
Saints 44 Rochdale 14
Saints 54 Featherstone 38
Eagles 4 Wigan 46
Wakefield 42 Rochdale 6
Widnes 41 Featherstone 14
Widnes 60 Rochdale 6
Widnes 46 Castleford 4
Widnes 42 Featherstone 28


And all from different seasons, some of which were more recent! Certainly not from the season you used as a reference. Within a single season blowouts were pretty rare until the 10m rule was brought in.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users